Turkish Orman Carbine Video

A couple weeks ago I mentioned that I’d picked up a neat new addition to my collection – a Turkish “Orman” carbine made from a French Berthier rifle.

During WWII, the Turkish government wound up in possession of several thousand (between 5k and 10k) French Berthier rifles, mostly 1907/15 models, but also some Mle 1916s. There is some question as to exactly how, but the most likely explanation appears to be a shipment of arms from Syria to Iraq sent by the Vichy French at the request of Germany. After the war, Turkey found itself having problems with illegal logging of its rather valuable Circassian walnut forests, and decided that it was necessary to arm its forest ranger service. Again, details are a bit sketchy, but it appears that a decision was made to deliberately use a non-standard caliber of ammunition for these rangers, so that if their rifles were stolen they would be of limited value (like the British Enfields converted to riot police shotguns in India). Since a big pile of Berthier rifles in 8x50R Lebel were available, they were chosen for the purpose.

The rifles were cut down to a medium length, and the front band and nosecap were replaced with leftover spares from 1905 Mauser carbines (with no provision for bayonets). They were restamped with new 4-digit serial numbers, and the receivers marked “TC Orman” (“Turkish Republic Forestry”) with a 1948 date. Somewhere around 10,000 guns were converted this way. They are still pretty inexpensive ($250-$300), because there is not much demand for Turkish arms in general. Well, mine arrived recently, and took it out recently for a bit of shooting and a video:

For what it’s worth, I think the best thing you can do with French surplus 8x50R ammo is to pull the bullets and use them and the original powder charges in new-manufacture primed brass – I wouldn’t pay much for it. Buying new Prvi Partisan ammo would be a simpler solution – it’s excellent quality and uses good reloadable brass.



  1. I loved your video on this gun. A rare piece indeed. I am buying one from my father. I can`t wait to shoot it. Also, thanks for the PSA on the `N` ammo. I shot quite a few N rounds through an unconverted 1916 long rifle. No problems, thank goodness, but it was hard to chamber and I couldn`t figure out why.

    Thanks again. Looking forward to more of your instructive videos:)


  2. Watched your video after a google search. I have just bought one and now need to find some brass. I will most likely be shooting cast bullets.

  3. Great video Ian. Any opinions on shooting these rifles with modern PPU ammunition? I have an opportunity to pick one up but there’s no chance of me finding surplus French ammunition here in the Great White North!

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