TRW’s Low Maintenance Rifle seems to have been the result of a program to use a blank slate and a modern space age scientific mindset to develop a rifle that would be more reliable and effective than other existing designs. It was contracted to TRW during the Vietnam War, and they produced a very light, long stroker gas piston rifle with a roller locked bolt. It was chambered for the XM216 single-flechette cartridge, with a muzzle velocity of a screaming 4700 fps. After production of three prototypes, the design was revised to use standard 5.56mm M193 and M196 ammunition. Three more rifles were made in this form before the program was cancelled in 1973 as the end of the Vietnam War caused funding to dry up for this sort of thing.
Thanks to the Ordnance Training Support Facility at Fort Lee for giving me access to this fantastic artifact!
You can find the full Low Maintenance Rifle technical manual here:
Anyone have any info on accuracy and controllability testing?
Be interesting to see flechette vs. 5.56 out of the same gun.
I’d kinda like to see this re-imagined using modern steels and high-pressure ammo along the lines of .277 Fury. But using a flechette much heavier than 8 grains. You could dispense with the recoil booster because you wouldn’t need a blank adapter to make it run. Furthermore, this thing looks like it was born to be beltfed.
This is the sort of weapon the CIA should have been getting to the unarmed resistance in Iran. It would have given the IRGC a nasty surprise.
Or a cheap open bolt “SMG” tube gun but chambered in rebated rim rifle rounds (IE: .350 Legend, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf) using an API blowback operation. STANAG magazines would still work for it.
@ JohnK: If the U.S. demanded that the POTUS would show loyalty to his own countrymen rather than pimping himself out to Tel Aviv as their ‘Shabbas goy’ Iran would not be a worry.
Maybe somebody serious. The CIA would buy them Daniel Defense guns and we’d see them down at the bazaar later that week. But yeah, a 5.56mm Sten would be fantastic.
An “open-bolt 5.56 Sten” would be somewhat easy as the bolt could be converted into a bolt carrier for existing AR-15 bolts and the barrel requiring a barrel nut to use locking lugs. It could use radial-delayed blowback or bearing-delayed blowback with fluted chamber barrels to handle higher pressure rounds.
As for using API blowback and rebated rifle rounds, this would require a modified bolt and the rebated rifle rounds (straight sided in particular) would be highly modular as the weapon would be able to use virtually any length of cartridge of the same caliber.
Rebated rounds such as the .350 Legend, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf etc have been used as vest busters.
“(…) “open-bolt 5.56 Sten”(…)”
Already implemented by some tinkerer in Colombia, see https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/FaB_556
It seems there are more iranian dissidents in the US, then among 93 million of people in Iran, which would surprise only a retard.
Maybe parachute them out of stealth fighters, instead of proverbial bombs?
Airdrop containers from stealth fighters, or even existing drones.
As for weapons, auto shotguns (IE: Saiga/Vepr/Origin 12/AA12) would be ideal for resistance fighters in urban areas. The ammo would be highly modular as they could fire almost anything avaliable.
“(…)fundamentally sort of a flawed idea
because the number of chances that a
soldier has to get a clean shot at some
guy at 400 m and have the accuracy to
actually make a hit at that range from a
battlefield position is essentially
zilch.”
Observe that whilst that might be rare nonetheless very high velocity will improve chance of scoring hits against moving target also at lesser distance.
Nowadays it’s more about hitting targets wearing armor. Just having the energy to penetrate is what makes the 400 yard requirement important. You can make hits with a .22lr, but they don’t matter.
Serious FG42 vibes!
Externally it resembles a scaled-down FG42, but internally it is essentially an MG42 that has been converted from recoil to gas operation.
The conical device at the muzzle is more likely a gas booster as on MG42. In this case it most probably provided extra back pressure to ensure reliable cycling of the gas piston system. I’m reminded of the early M1 Garand with the “gas-trap” muzzle; different shape but same basic idea.
In many ways it reminds me of the later CETME Ameli LMG.
It does not seem particularly “user-friendly” in layout, but that was typical at the time.
I have serious doubts about it actually being “Low Maintenance”, especially when firing M193 Ball. I wouldn’t like to be the guy charged with cleaning carbonate residue out of that piston assembly.
clear ether
eon
“(…)MG42 that has been converted from recoil to gas operation.”
Do as you wish, I would not consider that item progenitor, as it has left and right roller whilst TRWLMR has upper and lower roller. Therefore I ask: was presented weapon first every with upper and lower roller or there was another one earlier?
Two rollers are two rollers. Whether they’re at 9 and 3 o’clock or 12 and 6 o’clock falls into the category Holmes would call, “A difference, which makes no difference, is no difference”.
clear ether
eon
Maybe this gas booster was their (attempted?) shot at above normal reliability, 556 function better from long barrels and when gas is tapped nearer to the muzzle.
I wonder if you can shoot this left-handed without getting hot brass down the front of one’s shirt?
Well… I haven’t seen a video on that for; since more or less one was posted on here. Since, I rembember seeing something Nazi German “I think” last ditch, with a (Interesting wire stock; sort of a loop of wire, if you haven’t seen it – Loops of thick wire, er.. Gas hob, thing you put your kettle on? Point; it bends, a bit into your shoulder recoil.” ANYWAY! Since… Er… F.a.r.c gun, cross it with this one side 20 mount mag, fletcette rounds but 7.62 nato, another same but underneath, gast gun it somehow; like the dust cover/layout… Trim isn’t it not bulky/fat etc. Overall objective, double tap fletchettes. Heaviers one – Point, er… A Machine gun that, doesn’t “waste” rounds, I.e. You fire and more than usual hit. I am thinking about it, while trying to eliminate that gas hob stove stock for something combined with this. While trying to unusual gast gun layout it, while keeping it trim. Quite like the notion overall, if! It does, hit, more. Much more; so much more… With say someone not used to shooting. Because killing the enemy would be good for morale, hi five etc. Instead of “Fecks sake” a bit more – Would help, doubtless. Doesn’t… Maybe have two barrels, with this layout, a sort of sliding, drop hinged at front thing… Barrel thing. Actually this is getting worse, think I will have another drink. Cross it like a pug and a boxer to make puxer, cute, burp.
Slotted… Two bolts like… But maybe not barrels. Interesting notion, gas sleeved barrel, instead of rifling, spins fletchette/s… Hmm. What was I saying about having another drink. Sort of know what I mean the “Barrel” does the gas rod thing, with two bolts… Sort of.
Fletchettes don’t really need spinning though, do they; can’t remember… But, smeh… Gas pressure, back thing. Going to stick with it – Away to do that front end muzzle thing, perhaps, but in a different way. One barrel, two bolts staggered thus gast gun lark “I can see it in away, hmmm. Due to one mag at the side, on forward below, or flip that. Anyway, not close yet. Will have a think let you know, he he. Is a point though! F.a.r.c/This must have a had a point – Idea, realise, said point.
Eeek! No it’s ok, some movement avaiable in stock, bump fire thing, Fg42. Thought I hit a brick wall then, nora. No it’s ok, anyway enjoy your evening.
Two bolts seem needed – But still, one barrel “Sort of a gas trap sleeve’ish” hinges on a horseshoe’ish U but horizontial turns horizontal (The U) lowers barrel via it pinned to the front housing Mg42 style, hinges thus from vertical… And back. Hey its a start.
Be alot of issues. But, might be able to do it better “Cheaper” than AN94 type idea, and better via fletchettes; point, shit/inxperienced shooters.
Pin through the said horseshoe to barrel and seperate pin on horsehoe to mg42 barrel type surround, goes down and back, up and forward. Or needs to, burp.
“(…)nora(…)”
Explain clearly how Non-Organic Radar Access is relevant for described usage.
“Fletchettes don’t really need spinning though, do they; can’t remember(…)”
Unless intentional show of disdain: flechette. They are too long (high length to diameter ratio) to be spin-stabilized thus they are fin-stabilized see 2nd image from top https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/5.6%C3%9743.8mm_XM216
“(…)fletcette(…)”
Unless intentional show of disdain: flechette
“(…)Machine gun that, doesn’t “waste” rounds, I.e. You fire and more than usual hit(…)”
Observe that often even not hitting anyone from said weapon might be enough to make opponent not willing to enter certain area.
“(…)boxer(…)”
Which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Boxer exactly?
I believe you’re referring to this one;
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/krieghoffs-bizarre-prototype-fg42-proposal/#comments
I think we all decided it was a kludged-up hot mess intended solely to give the appearance of an actual “competition” when the Rheinmetall prototype had been selected in advance.
cheers
eon
If it so, then it is somewhat opposite situation to TRW as Krieghoff did have quite long history regarding fire-arms by 1940, as according to https://krieghoff.com/krieghoff-story/
Our History
H. Krieghoff GmbH – known worldwide as “Krieghoff” – began as a single vision to build the ideal hunting gun, a Drilling. Krieghoff’s evolution from its 1886 founding…
The gas sleeve idea is quite simple “BANG!!!” Top or lower bolt, not got there yet, but 1st BANG!!! gas hits vent @ muzzle pushes sleeve back, doing this hits bolt does usual thing, but also backfires lower barrel against fixed firing pin bolt (Bare with me) gas from that blows forward into sleeve blowing barrel up “As no vent till it gets back to orginal horseshoe” And thus inline to repeat. No? He he. Thats it currently, hee!
So it kind gast guns on X axis; top left of said X is attached to to barrel “X hinged in middle I think” lower right X attached to lower bolt… Along those lines, is a lower “Bolt” slamfire it, or is there. 21:02Hrs not drinking enough, he he. Anyway point is, the layout of the Tgw enables this, over and under gast gun lark, with spring fg42 stock. Overall’ish.
Aye, so to allow me to recover before thinking about that more; point – Fletchette F.a.r.c as this modified, reason; hit more at reduced cost, not farcial as an idea.
When I say this layout enables it, I mean that alu or whatever with holes in it, and the port cover – Sliding thus, well the rest slides thus; which is my point “About the layout.”
I am abit drunk, but it is definately forming along those lines we, slam fire the lower round. Somehow. Might not work… But if does, WHACK’BANG! Up the barell goes! Repeat. But that is the basics as of now, to be honest. And I not anywhere near even remotely addressing any issues thus.
Why slam fire? I don’t know… No I do it’s the X thing, we are trying to eject it as the barrel goes up. Nora, he he.
Can see issues actually, be ways though, ways…
“(…)Tgw(…)”
Explain what level of technology would be required to mass produced flechette with Terminally Guided Warhead.
Thank you for the video on the TRW rifle. I did not know they did a flechette version before the 5.56 NATO rifle. Could you do a video on the 5.56 NATO version? I heard that they used permanent lubrication. Where was the lubrication, inside the tube next to the barrel?
Wants to be cheap mind, and be able to made by hi-point spastic shit shot cunts; now go get those legions of Commie Chinks and win the purple heart or whatever Forest!
Ammo expenive perhaps, well more. Your “Special” Forest being issued with this expensive ammo gun. MAKE IT COUNT! And he would, so we’d be quids in. As would hi point, quite.
Less than Sig Spear eh; we can always tell Forest “Aim low” Why? “Sight, thing, cough…”
Hey, imagine though; pure dead mofos, hammered them. Be noticiable on paper.
Bad? No good if it’s you, your relative.
X thing axis, nora…
In Daweos comments reply fashion;
clarify what this has to do with serbian 155mm “NORA” howitzer
Nope to pissed… Anyway not total bollocks. Bollocks.
S’meh… Hmmm…
James Joyce couldn’t have put it any better.
The amount of several unique features (strap as a stock??) here is almost astonishing.
However ofc many features are unwieldy, for example, that rod (like on bolt action rifle) thingy on bolt carrier that sticks outside could be pushed unintentionally upwards while gun is dragged through something – maybe having nasty results if one fires a rifle not noticing, also locking strip on the buttstock assembly could break easily (ok, they changed it in new version, but it does not look elegant).
A method of fixing the magazine with no less than 2 points protruding into mag body, is very novel
Also, for some kind of everymans rifle receiver sure looks very expensive to machine, instead of being stamped like mg42
I think if it was made into 7.62×39 and roller delayed/retarded without that side bolt carrier, plus stamped construction, you would get much better and simpler end package
Storm:
Can you explain the need for a gas system at all on this rifle? Roller delay works perfectly well for HK, why complicate this simple system with a gas tube as well?
No gas system, thats why I wrote roller delayed !
556 is somewhat finicky, thats why 7.62×39 would be easier in that system, plus using AK mags you could source them on Vietnam battlefield
Storm:
I tend to agree with you, but I am wondering why the LMR needed the gas system to begin with.
I also think it would have been worth the small added complication to make it semi-auto if not selective fire. I would be happy to keep the open bolt system, its simplicity outweighs any small accuracy defecit.
They probably couldnt master the HKs roller retarding, maybe, correct me if I’m wrong, at the time there wasnt HKs 556 version, let alone somebody elses who is not a master of it.
There exists patents where someone made semi auto FCG for iirc m249 or minimi, (but from 20,30 years ago) so thus I think it could be made for M60 also.
Also, if you had big bolt carrier like in fg42, they could have made a rifle that has both open b. full auto, and closed bolt semi auto.
Storm:
You may well be right about the roller locking problem. But a truly simple rifle would not need a gas system and roller locking, one or the other. Likewise, I do not think they should have considered open bolt full auto, closed bolt semi-auto. It can be done, but why bother? Open bolt is good enough for what this rifle is meant to do. It will never be a sniper rifle, it’s more like a modern Sten gun.
You need some kind of locking system, it cannot function without.
This rifle conceptually gives some cheapo experimantal vibes, but seeing the machining on its innards and receiver, it is far from Sten, nothing on it is made so cheaply and crude.
If it was procured, it would probably had like M16, the development that spanned decades until all the kinks are ironed out and it functions as initially intended (low maintenance? if its attainable), but somebody decided it is too big of a fuss and shelved everything.
Storm:
Sure you need a locking system, but I can’t really see why a roller delayed system needs gas operation. The G3 doesn’t, and it seems to work quite well. It seems to go against the idea of making a cheap and simple rifle.
“wasnt HKs 556 version”
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/hnr-t223-manual/ provides preliminary operating and maintenance manual for 5,56 mm version of H&K design roller-delayed for U.S. forces dated June 1965 which mean it was known no later than this month, unless said document is backdated.
@JohnK
Back from my initial post I never suggested for that simplified hypothetical version it needed the gas system, yet you circle back to that statement of yours, are you an AI bot caught in a nonsensical loop or whatnot?
@Daweo
Great info, as always!
One needs to take into the account that 5.56 conversion is an afterthought, I’m pretty sure their main goal was doing it with that funky high fps flechette cartridge, thus roller locking and gas system were adjusted for it.
When it fell through you were left with salvaging a project shoehorning a “normal” cartridge. Maybe if it was designed from the start just for it, something would have been more promising, though also hard to escape the final forgotten destiny.
Storm:
What a nice comment. Do have a nice day.
Ian may become of the very few person in the world to have handled a number of rifles/smgs/lmgs with a side mounted magazine.
I would be very curious on his take about them. Do they have a negative effect on accuracy and handling? I suspect they are advantageous when lying down? Why did they almost universally disappear?
Unfortunately, not every forgotten gun Ian reviewed, he got a chance to fire.
An interesting relic from the end of the ‘whiz kids’ era. A combination of amazing ideas, short sightedness, completely bipolar spending sprees and totally cheaping out sometimes in the same project and politics most bizarre. McNamara, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon all hating the various aspects of almost everything and each other. Who needed the Dyna-Soar, MOL, NERVA, Skybolt, XB-70 or anything?