This is really a mystery rifle, or half of a mystery rifle. It is part of the collection at Springfield Armory National Historic Site, but its exact provenance from World War Two is not recorded. It is catalogued as a Knorr Bremse product, which is plausible but there is no specific marking on the rifle to confirm that. Photos have existed online for a while, and it is widely regarded as an FG42 prototype because of its short length and side-mounted 7.92x57mm size magazine. However, Knorr Bremse was not ons of the companies that participated in the FG-42 program. So is it perhaps a late-war concept to replace the FG? Or something else entirely? We just really don’t know, but I thought it was worth filming the gun to show the elements that are not visible in the online photos.
Thanks to the Springfield Armory National Historic Site for giving me access to this truly unique specimen from their reference collection to film for you! Don’t miss the chance to visit the museum there if you have a day free in Springfield, Massachusetts:
https://www.nps.gov/spar/index.htm
I’m guessing that it’s a “tool-room” example, basically a handbuilt prototype intended just to determine of the thing would actually work.
The roller-locking system, if in fact that’s what it is, sounds more like something Mauser or Rheinmetall would come up with, as in the MG 42.
The pattern of the grips suggests more early war than late. As does they’re being made of wood.
I’m thinking this might be an early Mauser prototype around late 1940 to early 1941. One that barely got off the drawing board.
clear ether
eon
I thought the wood grips/the pistol grip look like the late war… Gerat thing. This gun has been on here before I think… Knorr, Soup… Lark. Is the barrel not an Mg42 one “Can anyone tell?” I.e. It might not work thus, but perhaps short of barrels, so use, a barrel, they had – Suggesting, late war…
End of war this, I have seen those grips that trigger stamping thing on here, that Gerat thing… O6h.
Just imagine digging through the conex out back of the Colt tool room for a weekend and all you could find. Knorr is so much more than quality soups, btw.
You confuse Swiss Knorr with German Knorr from Munich, which derived its “Knorr-Bremse” name (Bremse = break) from its most prominent role in supplying the German railway system with breaks.
In the 1930s they developed the (muzzle gas trap) gas operated Knorr-Bremse machine gun, of which Sweden possibly bought some. One former Heereswaffenamt official told me, this got them into serious trouble with German authorities.
In the chaos of final WW2, everything is possible. But the assumption that Knorr-Bremse (which must have been most busy to supply German railways) re-entered the small-arms field late in WW2 does not sound convincing to me.
“(…)(Bremse = break) from its most prominent role in supplying the German railway system with breaks.(…)”
If I am not mistaken last word should be brakes, that is devices for lessening velocity of trains NOT breaks, that is gaps in electric wire.
“(…)muzzle gas trap) gas operated Knorr-Bremse machine gun(…)”
According to https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/sweden-machineguns/knorr-bremse-m40-eng/ inside Kg m/40 …The gas tube is connected to the bore of the barrel via two curved gas channels… so I would not call that trap design.
Quite like that chicken noodle one… Hungover, like. Drink – Food. “Ejects the same, mind; poor ring.” That barrel though can’t move back the frame blocks it, Mg42 barrels do…
You’re right, of course. Totally different Knorr, no matter how well-intentioned they were. And how tasty their onion-based sauces. I’d guess that there were more than a couple of engineers who got bored designing brake systems and realized they had a whole manufacturing plant to make stuff. Mmmm…onions
‘Come for the weapons, stay for the soup.’ That’s marketing. One can imagine movie applications. ‘No soup for me? Go on MF!Lemme hear you say it one more time! No soup for me? Lead dumplings for you!’ Blam Blam Blam!
Come for the meat, stay for the pudding !
The cut outs for the rollers do not appear to let the rollers move in and out of lock. They seem like the would be fixed in place.
Is it possible some other oart enveloped the rollers, and it was the moving section?
Blow forward, hee…
Suppose you could… Could you… Mg42 barrel… Bolt… If you pushed the barrel forward, and there was gaps for the rollers at that position they could retract… I think. Lewis gun, into battery firing, sort of… API’ish but a big bolt spring smacks the barrel foward, delay thus I.e. The BANG!!! happens rearward barrel pos – it with bolt moves forward, bolt can unlock… Piston for… Er? Assist with unlock, to great of a delay to cycle. Something. Interesting. Like the soup.
On the frame it has dimples, in it; Roller locking surfaces replaceable or otherwise, at that location… Strange gun. PTSD giving drinking that soup you knorr hungover, day after, Johnny Cash… Aye that song, on fire.
Gas… Delay (This is end of war, I think we can safely say.) great stamping tech – You lot say, probably had a great stamped top cover – Covered that cocking handle gap, so on. They needed to stamp, and got good at it, good equipment etc, etc. Now… What was I going to say… Gas… Say it was blow forward – Gas does what from the block? Slows heavy barrel moving forward, nothing more? A version of that Steyr Aug pistol grip looking gas delay lark… Again, this is all end of war, totally had it, but the government keeps nagging at them to do things! Anything! And they do – As oppose being shot.
Gas delay thus, stamped, end of war, train… Fg42 idea. Delay as above, Lewis lark bolt wacks into barrel, barrel moves forward “Forward until rollers disengage, aye forward…” Gas hit bolt, slows this disengagement down? Would it haf verked for ze Germans? Nobody knows, the war ended and it is Ohio or wherever Springfield Simpsons.
So delay simply from mass of barrel sprung I assume, being hit by lighter mass of spring loaded bolt, pushes it, bang! Be too quick to hit forward roller disengagement point though safely, so gas hits it slowing it… Point – End of war, have to think like this, Soviet advance.
Aye, that gap above; the gap that allows us to see the Mg42 type barrel… Why is there a gap there, a gap for something…
The most interesting question to my mind is this: How the hell did they prototype the stamped bits absent already having fabricated the necessary dies?
Did they hand some exquisitely trained/experienced guy a hammer, a blueprint, and then tell him to have at it with his mandrels?
You see all the complexity in the parts that went into this weapon, and you just have to wonder. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything going over that part of the development process, and I’ve always wondered what the hell they did…
Remember Italian supercars of the 1950s and 1960s? “Body by Giugiaro” meant “Body panels of aluminum sheet hand-hammered over wooden bucks”.
Nobody ever asks where that production method came from to begin with.
This may be one example of its origin.
cheers
eon
“(…)panels of aluminum sheet hand-hammered(…)”
Actually hammer-and-dolly method was applied widely to repair body cars in early days of automobiles, according to https://autobodyofzanesville.com/history-of-autobody-repair/
In the late 19th century, traditional methods used by auto body repair shops relied on the use of basic tools, such as hammers, dollies, and heat guns, to reshape damaged metal. This method was incredibly labor-intensive and often resulted in inaccurate repairs to the automobiles.
In the early days of the car industry, when an automobile, such as a Model T Ford, was involved in a collision or suffered damage to its body, skilled craftsmen had to rely on their experience and craftsmanship to restore the damaged metal to its original form. This process involved the use of basic hand tools like hammers and dollies…
However please keep in mind 1890s automobiles were designed in such fashion that said panels were not used for force transmission and therefore could be relatively thin.
I wondered about that many times when looking some prototype weapons, especially soviet post ww2 rifle trials that were mostly stamped.
However, when looking from close distance, some give pretty crude looks.
Maybe there are some kind of dies that are faster to make, perhaps not from steel, but also not sufficient for serial production.
That, probably, plus welding. The sort of welding done on magazines, that is: joining sheet metal so cleanly that the seam isn’t obvious, or at least doesn’t stand out to the untrained eye. You take a skilled guy, get him to hammer out one part of the receiver, then weld it to the rest. Or you make a smaller, simpler die for just that one part of the receiver (and don’t bother with sending it out for heat treatment), and again weld the resulting stamping on to the rest of the receiver. You wouldn’t want to do this in production since one big stamping is cheaper, but it’s fine for prototypes.
Or you take the philosophy that the main difficulty with a stamped receiver is the stamping dies and that if you put that pain off you’ll just be delaying the inevitable, and spend the money to tool up for making a lot of dies as you iterate through prototypes.
I bet they could though, do that then, at the end – Desperate. I really like these “Desperate” Nazi guns, they really knocked out some stuff – Desperate eh…
It would be good if museums and places with these rare specimens invested some effort in keeping them in order for disassembly, and not so rusted in or seized (being left in that state for decades)
that pushpin (btw. contrary to what Ian said, is made from 1 piece, like in stg44, not 2 that go one into another, like in Ingram) cannot be taken out.
This is ofc not the first time it happened in videos
The weapon reminds me of the Rodman XM235, it field strips similar and is a bullpup
Hmmm… This thing, now you said that; says to me “That train” end of war, prototypes… “Prototypes” ranging from, paperweight, head scratching ones to the designers, never mind us, to working ones. I think that Rodman thing you mentioned may help…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodman_Laboratories_XM235 That is likely linked, to this… Even if just “Who made that, played around with this.”
I think this is an end of war gas delay, like everything they thought, of then, or most things… Being… Well… I mean desperate. But they were very good, I think we can all agree, fair play. Aye, gas delay, stamped Fg42 for the war from the train – In the future, for Nazi Germany. Instead clearly it ended up in the U.S but they didn’t know that, or certainly couldn’t say that was likely. Can’t be dishing Adolf, S.S be coming round and popping you. BLOW FORWARD!! Whats not to like, have some Chicken noodle soup!
I am sticking with that. Actually you know, I quite like it… 5am in the U.K I 6 cans its a bank hol… Hee…
Yes… The Lewis gun firing mech is the key… It all semi locks going forward just a bit, fires, goes forward bit more unlocks – Forward, slowed gas delay, sprung barrel. Does an Fg42 mag fit that mag well, looks maybe slighter bigger, not sure…
Or not, burp… Saw this years ago on here, this better be progress, hee…
Ok, to attempt to prove that theory, I am going to have a look at an Mg42 & Lewis gun bolt, again and goe… Cross them into zis for Adolf bless him. And then we vill knorr.
Had a look, now I am drunk… But after 15 min or so… Can see it, the Lewis gun/Fg42 bolt, is as per… But said bolt head turns… Right… Mg42 bolt head on a table Adolf. Here is a Lewis gun bolt. Here is a Mg42 barrel, aye on the table. Now, these lewis front lugs now engage here on the mg42 bolt when it turns, which given the barrel cause it “The mg42 bolt head” to engage the mg42 barrel. The whole thing then moves forward… “Vhy?” So the mg42 rollers can move inwards… “Vat happens to ze Lewis gun head?” it rotates clearly… To allow. Adolf, give me a pen.
The rotating does the same thing “Look the lugs” as the, squishy thing… Get it? “Sort of” Hows it going anyway Adolf? “Bit shit, not all my fault” I liked you paintings. “Cheers”
Upside down Lewis gun’ish bolt, just looking at the frame…
Gut gun, like it… Ja…
Look at that sexy stamped foresight, you know if you are producing that; your Catherdrals etc are being flattened by ze Lancaster Bomber etc bug you are right. Yes you are – That is a sexy stamping, feck them.
Vertical – Horizontal – Lugs = Squishy thing. Should have come up with this earlier! Ha. These stampings are ace.
https://youtu.be/fd16sNr9T2Q?is=0jCmk2N3nSPLFvOZ
End of receiver top folded bit suggests I suppose the missing D-ring that could serve as a sling point, akin to some ww2 british style of carrying, or like in m60 mg
I wonder about that gap, the gap… That allows us to see the Mg42 type barrel… Something sat in that, that you could remove “Hence the gap” something likely at one end acted on by the mystery gas system, and the other the mystery bolt, but sat above that Mg42 barrel chamber section… What could it be… What could it be! Hee…
If it was “Likely” off that train, they took stuff they thought was worth going with… Carrying on with. A cheaper Fg42 stamped etc, makes sense; if you look at it like that I.e. They wanted to make everything cheaper, etc. So it must have been A. We are being tricked, it used Mg42 barrels because they had them, lots of – spares for the machine gun, and it had nothing to do with the actual mech. Or B. it did have something to do with the mech… Still thinking push it forward a bit “Said barrel” to do, do things… Things…
It isn’t on the face of it a production Mg42 barrel, looking a piccies of one… Similar in away, but not similar enough, to suggest it re-used ex Mg42 barrels for example. The key is that gap – Were we can see said Mg42 style barrel. End of war… Cheap design. Could the “Rollers” Two pins, rotate, but go upwards… Through the holes we can see, into said gap…
Maybe not, interesting gun anyway.
Twisting pins, two pins… Each one has a straight and a curved side… That rotate in the holes – Visable, chamber end. Bolt head same; grooved can accept rotating pins… Curved side unlock, flat side lock. Top off said pins pop out of the top of said chamber holes. Gas piston, a tube, has similar corresponding indents I.e. Curved/flat, but it moves back and forth.
Because…
Anyway Ian thought locked, but I said barrel needs to move back, I said forward, could be either – Does barrel move (At all in any direction) if you smack it, with a rubber mallets etc; siezed up. If not. Must be delayed, as oppose locked… Full power… Hmmm.
Unusual barrel design if it doesn’t move at all… I mean why make it Mg42 looking… Which moves, why not round.
That could be siezed up, having moved back, see… Thats what we need to ascertain – Barrel movement. Any or none.
I am saying this, that barrel, in that postion can’t move back – The frame stops it.
The frame dimples, which might suggest locking piece reinforcements inside the receiver are forward of the visable “Roller” holes now… Mystery, he he. Anyway.
The front of the holed chamber section, is sort of curved/angled suggesting forward movement “Angled / I.e. To push forward. Limted movement forward, but if forward thus – The actual movenment could be back. I am sort of leaning forward, because that is a push… If it was gas delay, could aid delay – Barrel mass, presumably sprung; could be siezed up. Even just a bit 1cm… 0.5cm of barrel movement – If not, must be delayed, not locked.
Full power delay… G3 ok, but its barrel profile is round. This does look Mg42’ish I.e. Movement. Mystery, hee! Knorr soup.
Delay… Might have been getting somewhere with said pin rollers – It is possible of course; they didn’t know either, it was captured prior to anyone working it out – German or otherwise. ANYHOO!! I don’t care, think there maybe something regards of forward movement thus, if it could be worked out. Mystery…
What do you say Adolf? “I don’t drink” You don’t drink! Oder, look at that now; Russians.
Forward, as the Lewis gun bolt, does go forward of the carrier doesn’t it, push… But could it be timed thus. Hmmm… Would delay in theory “Mass/sprung barrel – having to be pushed forward, even a bit. That is a delay.”
Aid with full power… Gas delay/locked, hee… Locked, is a “Delay” per se… Mystery.
My idea of the pins “So shaped” was to do with the piston, being angled so as to rotate the pins that interact with the bolt, inside the carrier at a certain point. Equilbrium, by movement – Forward, thus, backward thus, turning, and cycle. That might have been not accurate. Mk1, they had a decent manufacturing design anyway, if the iternals may have been lacking. Takes both, after all, hee…
Ahhh… Looking at the video again, what about instead of the barrel moving… Its a big fat fecker isn’t it, unlike the Fg42… Like a g36 polymer, big fat twat, makes it thus… Could just be stampings… But could it be also a big feck off above barrel weight with a piston in it… Doesn’t explain barrel design, why Mg42…
Hate that G36 what a big fat cnut for 5.56mm when you look at an AR so svelte and pretty. Hate the G36, I do. Stampings eh, hee! I get that fat bastard in 1945, that G36 though, I hate it so much, what a foul piece of turd. Everything they shouldn’t have done, must have been clear it would need to be a big fat usless turd due to what it was made out of. Anyway s’meh, enjoy your evening.
Germany eh, who’s ever been? “I liked it alot also” but… Hey? Who’s seen the turd videos, poo thing… Unique that, to there I think. Quite, Adolf.
Honest, long history – To it, Google… Poop eating, honest 17th c Germans. Unique. Didn’t make me dislike them, I just thought it was “Interesting” not a “Thing” here, ha ha…
The comments section balooned very quickly…
Good.
Your thoughts? On the mystery rifles, operating system? WHY DOES IT HAVE… That Mg42 like barrel. I FUCKING ASK MYSELF. I do. What do you, think? With you having thought more about it. Now. Clearly – You now, with me, talking to you; like you asked. Thoughts? Don’t be shy, comment.
You boring cnut. Or say something. Apart from moaning at me, you FUCKING speak, what do you think.
To be honest, I took offense at your tone. Sir. I am trying to engage, it is for you to comment. I FUCKING BASTARDING COMMENTED DIDN’T THE FUCK I. Your go, Sir.
Operating system, your thoughts? “I am sorry, but why comment at all, if all you have is your comment.” Tell you what, you tell me everything I think about this rifle, and I will say thank you for sharing.
Forward action Mg42 I am 100% right, and so sexy.
Mr. boring Knut,
was thinking about it for some time, but I lack mg42 expertise to come up with how it maybe worked
Fair point. Sorry had a bought of bad diarrhea, no Knorr soup involved; but I was tetchy… At the time. Minor trauma. Dramatic? No, honest. So I appologise.
So thinking about…
The barrel in this video being in rearward postion “Total movement 1″ back/forward – Ditch Fg42 spike bayonet, ha…” forward… Mass, gas, must be a spring. I am thinking this; is Gerat 06h etc for the Fg42, everything is fucked. They are going stamp/gas delay. This is were we should be starting from I think. Lets start there… 7.92x57mm aye… No cash, Soviets. But, ace stamping machines etc exist… The train. Future, ha.
Aye, so we have to make an Fg42 in 7.92x57mm cheaper. Cheaper.
I know what to do, this wants to be a hi-point. BANG!! BANG!!! Cletus dinner.
Vill wrk 1st model bipod pos… Vill…