The Czechoslovak military knew when they adopted it that the vz.52 pistol was not very good, and they initiated a replacement program as the same time as its adoption. Two pistols were developed to be its replacement; the CZ 531 and the ZKP 524. The ZKP was designed by the brothers Josef and František Koucký, based heavily on the Colt 1911 and Tokarev TT33 pistols. It was chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge as required by the military, and held 8 rounds in a single-stack magazine. In trials against the CZ-531, it proved to be more accurate, but less reliable and more expensive. It suffered a cracked slide after 4,198 rounds fired, and an improved second example was made. However, the vz.52 proved good enough despite its shortcomings, and the program to replace it fizzled out after this testing.
Thanks to the Czech Military History Institute (VHU) for graciously giving me access to this unique prototype to film for you! If you have the opportunity, don’t miss seeing their museums in Prague:
https://www.vhu.cz/en/english-summary/
CZ 531 video: https://youtu.be/G64SHKQTUZE
So what would semi-auto pistols be like today if John Browning had not existed?
You could maybe shout that question on the streets of Czechoslovakia while running around naked and having a gun magazine in your hands – but only after you happily invent a time machine to take you to 1960s.
In locked breech, probably mostly along Mauser, Mannlicher, Luger, or Savage lines.
Of the four, the Luger would win the reliability race, the Mannlicher would be the cheapest to build and sell, the Savage would be the durability champion, and the Mauser would be the one that could hit and drop anything out to 200 meters.
Among the blowbacks, Beretta would be the hands-down winner, being much simpler than the double-action Walthers.
As to who the Eibar Boys would copy, that’s a very good question. They did after all copy the Mannlicher.
clear ether
eon
In locked breech, had really none came up with the tilting barrel idea, to me, the place would have been taken by the next more similar thing, that’s the Bergmann-Bayard rising block action, whose only difference with the Browning action is that the barrel and the piece that tilts are separated (see the Arsenal Strike One).
Or, if it would be feasible to attain attractive price, recoil/rotation operation as used in Schwarzlose 1898 or Repetierpistole M.7 might become more widespread than in real history.
I agree. Its lack of early popularity is almost certainly due to the complexity, difficulty, and expense of milling camming surfaces on early manual milling machines. Mechanical linkages (and of course CNC) make that advantageous system more affordable.
Probably much the same. The theory of relativity was in the works of several physicists besides Einstein. Ditto for the Wright Brothers and flight. This isn’t to detract from Browning. It is to say that the demand for auto pistols being what it was, others would have worked along the same lines as Browning
At the time it was even said that, in the end, the theory of relativity was already contained in Maxwell’s equations, and yes, not only there had been several claims for the first manned flight in a powered aeroplane, but aviation steered completely away from the Wrights’ wing/warping canards (and there are doubts that the Flyer’s flight could really be considered “manned”).
We see that industry surpassed Browning’s designs when something else proved advantageous. Browning’s long recoil is no more the semuauto shotguns’ standard. Browning’s short recoil action is still used on the M2 only because it’s not worth to fix something that’s not broken in an application where weight is scarcely relevant. No automatic rifle / LMG still uses BAR action (only a very heavy GPMG).
The same way, pistol industry still uses long slides with the recoil spring under the barrel and tilting barrel actions because they have advantges, and probably would have come to them even without Browning, like they didn’t need Browning for gas actions.
To my understanding recoil-operated variants of Webley & Scott Automatic Pistol https://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/great-britain-semi-automatic-pistols/webley-scott-automatic-pistol-eng/ do use vertical movement of barrel in their cycle. Development by Mr.Whiting started in 1903 in United Kingdom. They seem distinct from Browning’s designs for recoil-operated automatic pistols, though I am unable to prove that Mr.Whiting was outside influence of early J.M.Browning works.
the Webley-Scott is surely interesting because it had the ejection window as locking surface, like in modern semiautos. But it’s “rising barrel” system had a serious defect. A lot of sliding surface, so surfaces that had to be clean and lubricated. Exactly the opposite than the mean advantage of the Browning. To have the minimum possible metal-to-metal rubbing (that’s its only real advantage over the rotating barrel, IE).
Dogwalker,
Very true, but it would be interesting (and easy / affordable) to see what they could do by simply using two cam tracks on pins.
I bet, sooner or later every good and viable feature and invention will be discovered. Because suboptimal solutions and problems scream and cry for remedy.
On a unrelated note, why is not the clip on the Terni Model 1921 on this site?
I’ve to say I prefer the CZ531. I find it more elegant, and I prefer it’s design solutions. Especially the very low bore axis.
Great calibre though, ppsh… 43 banana mags “Ranarama Atari St game retro” in 41’s add a mosin folding bayonet, 1,200 rpm in the nuts. Just saying in case of war, wood stock. Frog Hk Ar vz58’s German ones; they’d win intially… But eventually none of them would have any nuts. Tanks who fires at the armour, they try to hit it on top. But guns, oh no… Can’t give them 1,200 rpm under the armour. Thats what I mean it’s a war winning calibre even now; no recoil 30 in the nuts – Endex. And no, blood loss. Nicer than shooting them in the belly really. That isn’t nice with a .556 better 30 in the nuts. 1,200rpm great shooter ppsh’s – Hits. None of this Sten 9mm aiming at the ground and pulling up. Ppsh 30 or 23 + likely under the armour. Much better idea, it’s a club and a spear.
Wack them with it, or lob it, big unfolded screwdriver mosin bayonet, light enough; no mag – Winner. Better than an Sa80 try lobbing that. And lobbing is good; distraction, stab them.
Things like this will count; take the Chinese billions of them. Karate mofo robots, lob a ppsh modified at his handler and jump on the robot with a pin pulled grenade. Have the bastards, they killed Kenny.
Think about it, not billions of us, what will both of us fielding Hk416’s clones or otherwise do? Bar give an adavantage to them as theres millions more.
Peace talks etc, stood there 1 billion of them, give the speaker 30 in the nuts under his fancy armour in front of the lot – You’ll be getting that an all. Fact. 7.62x25mm is a good munition.
In the nuts, head, whatever; stab them. All these gun designs, planes etc, etc, are designs for a cold war. Where nothing happens! For gods sake, if something is going to happen; snap out of it we’ll be bankrupt in 8 months – That isn’t victory, it’s defeat.
500 million planes ot whatever they’ll go down at the same rate of Spitfires etc; fighting folk with air defence. Drones, drones we’ll need that many to replace a 500 million plane. Combine the two, r2d2 mofo spitfires, aye the pilot will ram it towards an oil refinery if needed; and yes provide an eject mech. Waiting for it to happen. Cheapen it now. R2d2 will totally improve a Spitfire, no messing with that A.I mofo – But shit on it’s own, cheaper, cheaper. ££’s win wars.
F22 raptors they’ll just be scrap, if folks start firing in months. Months.
And that is no good, what will support the infantry with. All this is plain to see.
“(…)R2d2 will totally improve a Spitfire(…)”
Be warned that prop-driven aeroplanes have their limits and whilst proposal above might result in improved reaction time it will not alter never exceed speed.
“(…)ppsh(…)”
Unless intentional show of disdain w.r.t. G.S.Shpagin PPSh.
“(…)Frog(…)”
Please explain clearly how https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/australia/matilda-frog-and-murray-ft-flame-tank/ is involved in your plan.
“(…)Endex(…)”
Please explain clearly how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EndEx is involved in your plan.
Sex bot xx Speak to me in Russian.
PPSh horny, Russian sex bot…
Clarity is not in Pdb’s makeup. The lad is a visionary and a poet, not a details-guy. One suspects a close collaboration with Dionysius, one does.
Dance around in your Y-Fronts why not.
My point was defence spending in the West is designed to keep big spending up; it isn’t designed for an actual war, it is designed for a cold war “India Pakistan border guards; cock fight, literally… Mince around try to intimdiate the others with your man package. Fine. Bar in an actual war. So is there going to be a war or not, we got used to saying, not likely in the cold war – Whats changed? Well how about the threat of an actual war.
Performance poetry, perhaps.
43 banana mags – thats a good name for postmodernistic action movie.
I bought a Vz.52 back when they were surplus for $80. I’d heard all the stories about how powerful the Czech loading of the 7.62 x 25mm was due to their SMGs, and actually got some surplus Czech military-issue ammunition for it. At the time, I was thinking the slim Vz.52 loaded with JHP rounds might make a useful “trail gun”.
Range experiments quickly disabused me of that notion. Accuracy was indifferent, call it one-inch-of-grunt at 100 meters. (Above all a trail gun needs pinpoint accuracy; one-second-of-squirrel.) Recoil was sharp and uncomfortable; those ribbed grips and that steel spring clip left welts. And the safety, which dropped the hammer like a Walther, was a bit alarming.
I concluded that the mythic Vz.52 just wasn’t for me.
About that same time I was offered an AMT Automag III in .30 Carbine. And was disconcerted to find that it had the same sort of “safety” as the VZ.52, except up on the slide Walther-style.
I concluded that if I ever wanted a .30 Carbine-caliber pistol, it would be a Ruger single-action revolver. Although frankly, I’d rather have a Convertible Single-Six in .357 with the spare 9mm cylinder. And today, several makers of Peacemaker clones are going that route.
As the old saying goes, people grow “too soon old and too late smart”.
clear ether
eon
Aye but to be fair .30 in a revolver would be better… Than 7.62x25mm in an auto, .30 in an auto is great I fired an M1 carbine “Auto M2 one, or a cludge” one. My point is, if you aim .223 at .556 deafeating armour… What are we doing? We wouldn’t do that with tanks.
The .30 would vent in a revolver, to make it; what – .357’ish.
Auto pistol no vent, carbine fab round. 1,200 rpm it. Shoot them in nuts. There is no point in an age “New age” of body armour aimimg at body armour.
Carbine bigger… Better round. Ok so, you .556 someone in the chest wearing .556 proof armour… Or you .30 M2 auto cal them in the nuts. Who’s going down? I am saying armour has caught up. Everyone of the PLA with have it now. And they out number us, 9000, billion %
lots of mentions of body armour
we’re not seeing much of it in the pics coming out of
CocaineUcaine.there may be distortion in the info, for example journalists and propagdists not wanting to go to those places where the average life expectancy is 40 minutes
or them not making it back out of those places?
.30 Carbine in a 7.5in revolver or a 6 inch auto equals hellacious blast and flash. It also only has about the ballistics of a .32-20 Winchester Center Fire.
If you want a .30 caliber class revolver, the .327 Federal is a much more reasonable option.
.30 USC 110-grain GI FMJ will generally penetrate soft body armor and some hard trauma plates out to 100 meters. I tested this back in the 1980s, and it’s why I’ve always thought the police tactical teams moving from .30 carbines to 9mm H&K MP5s in the 90’s was a bad idea. In the end, everybody has ended up using AR-15s in 5.56 x 45mm NATO, which is what they probably should have been using to begin with.
clear ether
eon
@eon,
Better choice for “trail pistol” would likely be either the Glock 20 or the 29.
You can do a lot with either of those, and they’re both eminently controllable.
I’ve yet to shoot a .30 Carbine pistol with any real confidence. Carbines? Yes; by all means. Pistols? Holy crap… My wrist still complains to me about that experience.
Back in ’59, Jeff Cooper had an article on trail guns in G&A. He divided them into “infantry” (hiker) and “cavalry” (horseback) categories. “Infantry” meant under 32 oz. loaded weight, “Cavalry” meant anything over that.
So, your typical service auto (like the Glock 20) or Magnum revolver (like the 41-ounce Colt Python or 40-ounce Taurus 627 Tracker- a specially-designed “trail gun”) fall into the “cavalry” category. Although in my horseback experience, the handgun was simply the backup to the Winchester .30-30 in my saddle scabbard.
One overlooked “infantry” model was the old Charter Arms Target Bulldog .357. Five-shot, aluminum frame, six-inch barrel, adjustable sights, 28 ounces unloaded. If Charter had had the sense to call it the “Trail Bulldog”, they might have hit the customer base that actually needed a lightweight “infantry” revolver with a heavy punch.
There really aren’t any sensible “infantry” trail guns around today. Although if we could convince Taurus to give us a four-inch, adjustable-sighted version of the five-shot 605 Defender .357, even with a steel frame it would probably check in at around 30 oz. Ported like the 627, it would probably kick less than the average 10mm.
Just a thought.
cheers
eon
“(…)aren’t any sensible “infantry” trail guns around today.(…)”
If you compromise at 32 ounces pertaining to maximal unloaded weight, then Rossi 2-RM641 https://rossiusa.com/product/revolvers/rm64/ seems to fit your requirements with 4.00 inch barrel, 32.00 Oz. (Unloaded) Overall Weight and Fully Adjustable Rear Sight. Caliber 357 MAG / 38 SPECIAL +P. Be warned it has capacity of 6, rather than 5.
Size, this is important now “Never used to be I am 5’9″ 1980 bet your that or below prior (Not everyone, but most) now look, 6’3″ easy these young layabouts on average here so god knows what they are in the U.S 6’9” or such. China no, same as the 80’s some lanky mofos but not likr us, so twice the target we present and twice tge armour coverage in essense. ££’s We should not aim at them being smaller targets, to hit their same advanced armour we have.
And there is 3 times as many. It is a serious point. To do so, we are askimg to fail.
Times change EON. Thats a fact.
But somehow the revolver survives.
cheers
eon
Proof that Sam Colt received a revelation from Heaven as to the Creator’s choice of sidearm. Personally I say the Lord God of Hosts is partial to the Colt New Service in .45LC
The Chinese who we are used to seeing (Han) are small on average
when you get up into the north, the average is a lot bigger, the Manchurian average is possibly taller than the English average.
Time was when I think we used to select little buggers for tank fighter aircraft crews.
That time may be gone.
The guy who I knew who was training on the F35, was a big heavy rugby player type. Sadly, he’s not around to ask, we buried him two Christmases ago.
“(…) training on the F35, was a big heavy rugby player type(…)”
According to https://www.stavatti.com/aircrafts/sm-39-razor/ SM-39 which is potential future U.S. Navy carrier aeroplane does
The SM-39S/T cockpit is designed to accommodate a wide spectrum of male and female crewmembers accommodating JPATS Cases 1 through 8 encompassing the 1st percentile female through the 99th percentile male (NATO) population range. This population range corresponds to crewmembers ranging from 4 ft 10 in/100 lbs through 6 ft 5 in/280 lbs. For planning purposes, assumed standard crew-member weight is 260 lbs, including survival equipment.
Sig spear rounds, drop one of 5 zillion at a mere cost of a rifle. Bollox. They’ll thrash us.
Tanks twice as big, Apvs ££’s… All adds up & bigger targets… Japs are still small’ish… Gurkas… We’ll be thrashed, be gaps due to cost in 6’9″ fuck ends armour against waves of mini me’s. Shoot them in the nuts.
With Ppsh zap these gnomes. Cheap = Good.
“Tanks twice as big(…)”
Be warned that in tank-vs-tank scenario important thing is who scores hit first. Whilst in early Cold War era being smaller target give significant boost, as of today fire control system (or more generally situational awareness suite) is of greater importance.
Its shit really take the new U.S B2 lark, now… As in now, would it not be better to have 1000’s of yb35 drones each with a 500lb glide bomb. Thats what I mean everything has gone fecked.
Prickley tank armour, got big jack frost sort of steel snowflakes on it looks weird… But they’ll be doing it, for a reason.
The reason is probably the cage idea but this also acts as camo.
“(…)have 1000’s of yb35 drones each (…)”
YB-35 was manned aeroplane https://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/northrop_xb-35.php requiring 9 people to operated. Do you have any reliable source claiming creating version without crew was seriously entertained?
What you need is Scott from Kentucky Ballistics out there gunning for drones with his trusty 4-bore rifle: “That’s over 200 foot pounds of felt recoil!” (That seems awfully important to him, regardless of task at hand)
Big ship cannons of ww2 super… But missiles are better once invented; you don’t need a massive steel breech to not explode. It’s a rocket – Better.
It looks like they reinvented the French 1935A. A good starting point, beef it up as necessary internally, 8-rounds capacity, it already has a gawd-awful safety, Czechs seem to like that. I have a couple 1935A, one Czech 52. Like shooting the 1935A, not so much the 52, slaps trigger finger. Read scary stories of the 52 safety causing fatal negligent discharges.
VZ.52 and AutoMag III have the same problem as any DA auto with a Walther “hammer-drop” so-called “safety”. Sooner or later, the drum that keeps the hammer from hitting the firing pin will acquire enough metal fatigue to give way and BANG.
Not to mention that the “safety” being up on the slide as on AM 3 is just unhandy. (Even more egregiously so on the already egregious enough Desert Eagle.)
The top-rear-of-grip 1911 safety is still the best all-around setup. One more proof that JMB knew what he was doing.
clear ether
eon
The best “safety”? None; true safety exists only in the mind of the shooter.
There are reasons that the double-action revolver “system” has evolved the way it has, and why it is designed the way it is. Similarly, the truly effective handgun system is evolving bit-by-bit into something very Glock-like, quite analogous to how everything in the ocean seems to evolve into crabs eventually…
It looks like they reinvented the French 1935A. A good starting point, beef it up as necessary internally, 8-rounds capacity, it already has a gawd-awful safety, Czechs seem to like that. I have a couple 1935A, one Czech 52. Like shooting the 1935A, not so much the 52, slaps trigger finger. Read scary stories of the 52 safety causing fatal negligent discharges.
Excuse double post, bitte.
Excuse double post, bitte.
Actually that is a quadruple post. I call it a public service to readers with A.D.D.
Of which there are… Some. Maybe not on here but lots in general “Benefits for it” maybe I should become a A.D.D “influencer” on poo tube. Difficult though, as I can’t think of owt to waffle about – Given a different subject. Radial engines… That rotate… Why? I don’t know, gravity. Actually… To be honest, I thought I wonder if that could be turned into a gun. So less than a positive start…
Lots of small ones “You know, radial engines” Sort of… Around, say a tank barrel. Youtube channel, I could wear a dress. Niti… Hmmm. Mofo. Hee…
Excuse double post, bitte.
Excuse double post, bitte.
S’Meh, he he. Anyway! Out. Enjoy yourselves. Over a decade, tut. Shit happens, move on – Green tech or something… Spew. No, lots of things. Out.
Ok I applogise a bit – Is a thing, I honestly can’t remember; not great… Mind you, very small, sort lf niti engine things in a line around a tank barrel… Your fault for being sober. Hee!
No, I am onto something there… Something. I’d look ok in a dress… Not great, but I blush, flicker my eyelids. Actually that hydrogen gas gun I once waffled about… Even as a trigger mech… Been usefull that, in away.
Appolgise “If I trigger you” but even on the basic valve brocock air cartridge spiral layout; radial hammers… In away. Nothing more, nothing less; but progress.
Gast gun layout the niti “breathing” barrel… Hydrogen lark, that big Robot on the start of T2 movie. Depends on that niti tube thing I thought of or does it “Squeeze bore” can it contract enough, at that point; point plastic barrel, in away… Along with various other points. Anyway, stuff…
The point would be; to… “Breathe in the hydrogen; detonate it behind a seperate projectile along the length of the barrel, the barrel not being usual as in it is a sort of sheer stress lark, it contracts around the projectile producing what we know as rifling… Because of niti in the way its designed. Then, it “breathes” again; reloads hydrogen, into valves, said valves are then hit the “Radial thing”… As yet Brococks eject hydrogen behind round – Ignition, is a piezeo electric lark intergral into the barrel, exanding tube thing. Radial hammers as described, sort of makes it easier for me to understand anyway. Obective; that gast gun robot off T2.
Really tight sphincter, barrel, for the bang “Niti compression” but just for that… It’s different anyway, burp.
Might be numerous problems with it, but just saying; thats a potential use of niti. Tight sphincter, at a certain very passing point…
https://youtu.be/DHKxoARmjLU?si=WoKdwvHRtN5ma5L2 I just want everyone, to think, even if I’m thick. Just think, what can we do differently.
Aye, incase robots think of it 1st. Just incase.
Er… Why? “Think maybe of me, as A.I; I have listened to everything you have ever said (Clever, knowing folks.) and waffled out some pissed shit – I am saying to you A.I will do thus, just thus… And it maybe less shit. And then there is a risk of Terminators “Aye like of the films” because life, whatever “It” really is, wants to continue through us, Monkeys, snails whatever – I personally have gut feeling, thats all its about, and it will ditch us like the dinos if it can get us to make a better conduit for or bacteria to “Live” Aye a wee world, atomic scale, bereft of Jesus. Some really serious lookimg mofos on that scale – ten heads, each with dino type teeth etc, big red evil eyes x 1000 – Like they have been around forever, battling. Think on. Just consider it. I like Jesus an all, for getting at Romes brutal way of life – But that is not my point.
And its not ok, to think; hydrogen is a gas, big gas canisters as if. Americanium 241 is hydrogen in away, don’t be out thought folks by these robot mofos – Who are nothing without you thinking it, think bigger. Hey even if it ain’t true! It’s good, get folk potentially thinking outside the box – Good thing, they might design better sewers all sorts of stuff.
Last year I was subscribe to Tik Tok for about 72 hours. After that a world ruled by malevolent robots started looking better ‘n better
Fucking hell I can’t belive it, that makes alot of sense – My account got hi-jacked by some sort of “Drunk” A.I bot. Who would have thought it, techno… Olgy… Anyway, I changed my password, burp. Hi! 🙂