Today I have a chance to test out a couple rounds of SP6 armor-piercing 9x39mm ammo, using an ex-Russian AS Val rifle. First I’ll try an MNIJ Level 3A soft vest, which is rated for pistol rounds. Second, I will move up to a VPAM6 hard plate. That’s a European standard certified for 7.62x39mm ball (roughly on part with NIJ Level 3).
The round sails through the soft armor, of course. But on the hard plate, it fails – even when I managed to hit right next to a previous round’s impact, which would have been it’s best opportunity to get through.
Of course, this is not really surprising; this is the performance intended from 9x39mm subsonic AP, and I’m not the first person to demonstrate it. But I wasn’t going to turn does the chance to do it myself!
[OFF-TOPIC so ignore if you wish]
Recently REVOLVER SEAL https://www.revolverseal.com/ utensil for Heritage Rough Rider Tactical Cowboy and Tactical Rancher .22 LR was developed. When used it does turn said fire-arms into gas-seal weapons and allows to effectively suppress them.
Idea itself is not new, as shown by Peters PSDR III https://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/psdr-suppressed-silenced-iii-2/ from 1990s.
What I found surprising is that, they elected to use Heritage Rough Rider Tactical Cowboy and Tactical Rancher .22 LR. To my understanding, said fire-arms could not be used together with speed-loader and seems to cater for users seeking 19th-century aesthetics when silencers were not invented yet. So who are intended users of Heritage Rough Rider Tactical Cowboy and Tactical Rancher .22 LR mated with REVOLVER SEAL and Titan .22?
At the time of 3D printing, device like this are becoming easier to consider.
However, I won’t volunteer to try such system with cap & ball revolvers !
The real question here isn’t “Did it “defeat” the armor?” but “How much energy did it transmit to the target and what effect did that energy have?”
You see the backside deformation of that armor plate? Do you think that you’re going to get hit like that, and still be at all useful as a combatant, afterwards?
This is the point that all too many idjit-class types seem unable to comprehend: You do not need “penetration” or “armor defeat” to achieve combat-value effects with projectiles. It is enough to simply put the enemy out of the fight; while they are laying there with the fight knocked out of them, you can move up and put in anchor shots, capture them, or even just ignore them while you continue your mission. You’ve likely induced a life-long fear of getting shot in them, no matter what, which will reduce their enthusiasm for war nearly as much as anything would short of actually killing them.
The backside deformation on that plate Ian shows us? That’s why nobody in the Ukrainian theater is clamoring for “overmatch”. You really don’t need it, with current levels of armor, and anything in the way of armor that would require that is probably so heavy and unwieldly that the guys wearing it are not actually all that much of a threat; you probably need hand trucks and a dedicated team of porters to move them around the battlefield.
So long as those 9X39 rounds are carrying enough mass and velocity to produce the energy for the behind-armor effects? Penetration and “armor defeat” is entirely extraneous. The real question is “Will the guy this projectile hits still be interested in and capable of fighting back?”
Short of strapping that armor onto a representative example of the other side’s soldiers and shooting them with these weapons, I’m not really sure how you answer that question
Good point…
I suppose you could rig up scientific gear to measure foot-pounds transferred to the body at point of impact. Then compare it against, say, being struck by a major league fastball. That might give you a rough notion. If that fails you could advertise ‘The Bullet Challenge’ on social media. I am sure there would be volunteers. Doubtless there are legal hurdles in many places. Less so in countries at war and in need of the info. Pigs in armor are another alternative.
Might be a use for my favorite Nitinol imaginary best material for everything, corn flour… Water… Whats it called, shear stress armour? Goopy substance, goes harder when you wack it – Lots of opposing niti strands doing the atomic dance thing; cause goop to go hard, soft armour that goes hard… Battries… Wasn’t that, was some sort of plastic… Pm… Pe… Pme… Forget, wikitrawl once came up with it – Shockwaves cause it to heat up, so “Whack” it sets of the Niti, which sets off the shear stress thing. Was along those lines.
PDMS… I think, googling it, again. S’meh, got a shed? Have fun.
“(…)substance, goes harder when you wack it(…)”
This is certain kind of non-Newtonian fluid.where Apparent viscosity increases with increased stress
I know an individual who has conducted some informal experiments with non-newtonian fluids I. body armor. He was placing a layer of said fluid in a ziplock bag on top of what I’m pretty sure was a sheet of 3/8ths mild sheet steel, and shooting with 7.62×39 at about ten meters. He was able to stop the projectile in some cases, but making each batch of non-newtonian fluid constant enough was a challenge. That said, this individual also essentially agreed with the above assessment that even if his armor were to stop the projectile, the wearer would probably still be incapable of fighting afterwards. His idea was that this stuff really was more useful against shrapnel than bullets.
Which is why I think the whole “NGSW Overmatch Armor Defeat” path is… Delusional.
The kinetic energy has to go somewhere, and since the human being wearing the armor is decidedly squishy, you either have to figure out some means of extracting all that energy out of the equation, or resign yourself to the squishy being incapacitated or damaged.
One of my guys took 3 rounds to his body armor. Two were AK47 conventional projectiles on the front plate, and there was a third on the back plate delivered almost simultaneously from friendly fire, suspected to be either a deflection or a ricochet from the squad’s 7.62 NATO M240.
No penetrating injuries, but he was definitely hors de combat for about three weeks, and the bruising/tissue damage was truly epic. Poor bastard was touch-and-go for MEDEVAC out of theater, but they kept him with the unit on bed rest for about the first week, and then light duty after for about another three. It was even longer before he was back to where he was before the event.
NGSW fantasizes about a lot of things, not the least of which is how efficacious body armor actually is. I’m here to tell you that singular or multiple strikes from even intermediate calibers will do a number on the actual soldier, such that you’re basically achieving the goal of taking them out of combat even if you don’t manage to kill them. At the worst, from the standpoint of the shooting side, you’ve reduced their combat effectiveness such that they’re a lot easier to kill. They sure as hell will not be “running away” or trying to run towards you, at least not with any real speed.
Body armor has a ways to go before it really reaches the fantasy-land view of the morons behind NGSW. I’m not sure that the physics will ever reach the point where something you can wear will reduce the effects of a current-technology projectile hit to near zero, such that you’d actually need NGSW-postulated armor penetration.
Maybe the military needs to be clear about what they expect: 1. to save soldiers’ lives when shot; 2. to take a torso hit and keep fighting. The latter looks like a pipe dream. The former looks like a winner. It improves troop and civilian morale. It saves on training costs. (Fewer replacements needed). It saves on the medical costs for wounded soldiers. It saves on funeral and insurance payouts for the dead. So the bottom line is body armor is a useful idea, so long as you don’t expect soldiers to rejoin the fray after a standing eight- count
The argument isn’t that body armor is useless, but that the ideas behind NGSW are.
You don’t need the uber-rifle, with all of its issues, in order to achieve actual useful combat effect. This is pretty much proven subjectively by what has been going on in Ukraine, and how neither the Russian Federation nor the Ukrainians are seeking “better” calibers. What we have is working well enough, and there’s really zero justification for NGSW or the sacrifices they’re making to achieve the effects of NGSW.
Long run, I remain convinced that NGSW is a very expensive mistake we’re going to be backing off of the next time we’re actually carrying that impediment into combat.
Body armor is a whole other issue. I strongly believe that there’s a spectrum, just like with “suppressed vs. unsuppressed”, and that we need to consider things like weight, heat exhaustion, and the actual utility of body armor for soldiers in the assault. It’s bad enough that you’re having to carry huge loads into combat, but when much of that load is body armor that’s actively preventing you from doing your job…?
The whole thing needs to be re-thought from first principles. There’s an equation out there, that would express the trade-offs: You’re so heavy on armor that you can’t move, your inability to move costs you casualties and loses your fights while more lightly-equipped opponents dance around your forces… Or, alternatively, you’ve gone the other direction and your forces aren’t armored enough to survive the combat actions they get into.
It’s all a compromise, and one you have to tailor to the combat environment, which includes your enemy.
“(…)NGSW is(…)mistake(…)”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys9KEO4c6EI does suggest that beyond fragility, production &c problems thereof
In case of M7…you’re trying to solve the wrong problem.
“bottom line is body armor is a useful idea”
C.f. wide-spread introduction of helmets during WW1. Said helmets were unable to resist rifle bullet, still provided ability to survive hits from debris, which otherwise would be lethal.
subsonic ammo obviously does not have enough energy to get through, but I wouldn’t want to get kicked by this horse anyway.
Dropped a pint then, 5 min cleaning up, do you know why? It came to me, that Americanium crossed with nitinol… Could, do what? No. Or in some form, could it; split the atom. Hee… Because, you can’t stop the niti change, it couldn’t? Could it. Burp.
Probably couldn’t… Burp, reload pints.
Unless, it could “But not pint spilling lark.” Maybe very small – Like a propellent, funny, usually when these things come to me… There is something, something. Might not be.
“(…)Americanium(…)”
What is that?
Radioactive shit in fire alarms… Nuclear, Chernobyl mofo.
“(…)in fire alarms… Nuclear(…)”
Then, you meant Americium. Observe that it belongs to top 10 most expensive elements at market https://alansfactoryoutlet.com/infographics/the-cheapest-and-most-expensive-elements-per-kg/ anyway I hope you will not repeat actions of https://allthatsinteresting.com/david-hahn
You know when niti does it’s thing, that bit; SNAP!!! No. Yes… Try it.
I mean in theory, nothing can stop niti changing “It’s atomic” and thus… SNAP!!! CRACKLE!! And pop – Ceral, rice crispies. Might be wrong. Burp.
Might…
Even a bit, any yeild… I wonder, bullets. Maybe one day (Well think on, as our computer “Buddies” will. Think.)
https://youtu.be/DHKxoARmjLU?is=w1sudODmJTQOq-Ie
I am covinced of one thing, we must think now, incase.
https://youtu.be/ZH9kSScl8vU?is=3pnU7h5iF1JMtier
Man-made radioactive element,#95 on the periodic table. It has a number of uses like in fire alarms. I’m not sure why Pdb wants to litter the landscape with it in the form of spent projectiles.