The PP-19 Bizon is a Russian 9mm AK model using helical drum magazines, made in several calibers. It was taken into service in 1996, and has been making Western AKphiles drool ever since, because who wouldn’t want a compact 9mm SMG with a 64-round capacity (64 rounds in 9×18 Mak; 53 rounds in 9×19 Parabellum).
Well, Stuff & Things recently released their “Stizon”, which is a kit to let you mimic the Bizon on one of four different US 9mm AK platforms (PSA AKV, CAI NAK 9, CAI 9S, or KUSA KP9). It is a basically drop-in kit, replacing the handguard, muzzle brake, and magazine catch while leaving all the mechanic parts untouched. Two models of drum are available, one with a solid black casing and one with a transparent body.
I put a Stizon kit on my KUSA KP9, and I’ve got it out today for the monthly 2-Gun match. I’m shooting in outlaw PCC division as a way to have some fun with the new gun, so my scores aren’t a fair comparison to other folks. I had a couple issues with the drum, which is honestly not a huge surprise – drum magazines (helical ones in particular) are notorious for working *most* of the time. The Bizon was in fact replaced in Russian military and police service after about a decade because of drum magazine issues – the replacement Vityaz is essentially the same gun with traditional box magazines.
It must be nice to go to a well organized match and be allowed to break the rules, just so people can watch you goof on the world with some bizarre boomstick.
A lot of local, non-nation level but still serious matches will let you do things like this if they know you and can trust you.
I have shown up for local outlaw steel matches with really oddball stuff (breaktop Schofield, 8 shot Ruger Blackhawk 327, HiPoints, Webleys, Astra 400) just to do it.
In fact, a local ICORE group let a bunch of IDPA guys squad up snd shoot to get practice for a regional IDPA match.
Likely has a lot to do with Ian’s contributions behind the scenes. Hell, just on publicity value alone, he’s probably well worth a little accommodation by the people running the match. How many paying participants have found their way to these matches because of what they see Ian doing on here?
I think someone’s Karen-mode jealousy is rearing its ugly head, TBH.
You’re definitely over the target Kirk.
Totally separate issue, but I wonder if anyone has done an actual analysis of why helical magazines in small arms don’t seem to work all that well.
You look at it, and more than a few aircraft and seacraft weapons have helical magazine designs somewhere along the line; how is it that this idea works well in that situation and is so iffy with small arms?
I’d also like to know if part of it might not be down to the taper on the 9mm cartridge; would they do better with perfect cylinders? How much “ability to rotate” does a cartridge need for effective use in this mode?
The basic difference is than on a seacraft/ aircraft gun, you have a mechanism that is movitthe cartridges with precision and authority.
In a small arms magazine you have a orecwoznd spring, unless you start to turn the magazine into a complicated clockwork.
That spring cannot be to strong (else the cartridges don’t go out), and thus, may fail to deliver the force to move when stuck.
Simple – amount of friction and tolerance stacking due the large amount of functional parts in magazine.
1st one is unavoidable, except by using lubed ammo.
2nd one is avoidable with high precision mags, which makes them too expensive for something that is semi-disposable.
Compared to the cost of aircraft/ship/vehicle price of high precision helical mag is small change. For a blowback SMG/PCC – none would want to pay 400-500$ per magazine.
Tolerance stacking is not helped by smaller dimensions in firearm magazines.
There is also a thing that aircraft/ship/vehicle mag is pretty isolated from foreign influence like dirt/dust/mud etc, which is not necessarily true for firearm mag where anyone who has ever been in field knows that “dirt will find it’s way”.
C02 could “shake” the ammo perhaps, thus doing the lube thing; might not, just a suggestion… Premise – Rattling the stuff on a small scale is sort of oil… What do I mean? “I don’t know,
vibrations” Anti friction, vibrations. Rattle, rattle, rattle… Is it? Helps prevent sticking; my window stuck, hot an all… Probably something similar; wanted a wee microscopic “Rattle” yes I tried oil.
I think part of the problem is that the helical magazines don’t have a way to keep constant pressure directing the rounds to where they are supposed to go The rounds just go around and around and never know where they are supposed to be headed.
I would think rimless, straight walled cartridges would work better in a helical magazine, if they were lubed or the interior of the magazine had a super-slick surface.
Caseless ammo, detonated electronically might be a good fit for helical magazines.
“(…)Caseless ammo(…)”
If you need fire-arm using caseless ammo AND helical magazine then use Schirnecker https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Schirnecker_assault_rifle
If I had the means and payroll to create a helical drum mag, I’d try to make it weapon-powered, ideally using a connecting rod driven by a blow from the cycling bolt carrier to drive a cog wheel. The cog would provide the rotary power (plenty of it and constant) to the helix contraption that feeds the cartridges. Would that work better than a spring? Maybe. Would it be more reliable? Maybe. In an ideal world.
You’d have to pay careful attention to just how much energy you were siphoning off from the system, but as with a belt feed, it is a manageable thing.
I think the bigger concern is the sheer mass and weight of the magazine, and the changing center of gravity as the magazine empties. Friend of mine used to date an A-10 pilot, and I got to talking to him at a barbecue… He described having to make changes to his trims and so forth as the magazine emptied on the GAU-8. Granted, that’s with 30mm, but… I’m pretty sure that an assault rifle-scaled weapon would show similar issues.
In the end, the weight change in terms of balance going fore-and-aft might be a bigger issue than anyone thinks; the relative stability of the balance points on box and belt-fed weapons might be something we don’t appreciate enough.
Still, ya don’t know until you try it.
When I’m in a speculative mood, I like to think about a hypothetical individual weapon based around caseless cartridges, the Dardick “Tround”, and a helical magazine. I have no idea if you could even make that work, but I think it’d be a fun thing to screw around with… Should they ever get the materials technology going to actually make it happen.
“(…) make it weapon-powered(…)”
Take look at Evans Lever Action Repeating Carbine
https://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-american-west/case-41-competing-for-the-market/evans-lever-action-repeating-carbine.aspx
The magazine operated on the principle of the Archimedean screw and took the form of an enclosed fluted shaft that rotated within a spiral tube. As the shaft rotated, the .44 Evans caliber cartridges were advanced from the loading port in the buttplate to the receiver, without requiring a magazine follower.
with catch it used energy from shooter muscles.
There was also the Mannlicher Model 1880 “tube-sheaf magazine” bolt-action rifle;
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2024-01/1706088542_11.webp
Instead of an Archimedean screw, this system has three more-or-less conventional tubular magazines, rotating on a central axle. At the front, a conical drum with helical grooves (rather on the principle of the Mauser “Zig-Zag” revolver’s cylinder) rotates the entire magazine system 120 degrees (one-third of a circle) every time the bolt is cycled, so that each time a tube is presented to the boltway so a fresh cartridge can be picked up and fed in the usual manner.
As with the Evans, the external power source is the shooter’s right hand.
Both the Evans and the Mannlicher M80 point up the major drawback of such large-diameter tubular magazines, namely where do you put them? Not to mention the extra mass. The Bizon, like the Calico in the U.S., showed that there really isn’t much of a place for one in a rifle without making the whole thing an unwieldy boat anchor.
Granted, the Bizon isn’t much more of a PITA to maneuver than a regular AK with an underbarrel GL. But then again, with that Thermos-bottle-sized magazine under the barrel, exactly where are you supposed to put a GL if needed? Off to one side like the Italian Carcano bolt-action from WW2?
Probably the least-worst idea is still the Thompson/Suomi/PPD40/PPSh41 type drum magazine. But even with those, users still generally preferred the “stick” type.
Plus, if your “problem” can’t be solved with twenty to thirty rounds, you probably should have been using something belt-fed to begin with.
clear ether
eon
How about, vertical/below with Fn90 style rotators, but “That way” round… Only be as thick as two stick mags strapped together… Wonder if you could have two, two barrels “Gast gun” style, and the locking action is essentially said rotators… Burp, might have to think about that more…
Aye, it’s right that; bottom feeding case bullet 1st, kicks empty out – base facing up. Ooout! Vice versa, recoil job, gun 1 fires gun 2 on its return… Be along those lines.
Good point. Ian’s site is on helluva an education (as are its technical ccomment.) Letting him use off-the-wall gear scarcely represents an inconvenience. If anything it enhances the event
Truthfully, I’d pay good money just to watch it at a live match. Ian could easily turn his thing into a firearms-related historical vaudeville show, and probably find a huge audience with it all.
In a tricorner hat with a quartet of Collier revolvers hanging off his person, it could be quite a show
If I made a “Tin foil” hat, I’d definately make it a Tricorne one; to be a dandy Tricorn hat wearer… As oppose a Tin foil hat, one. Wee C02 cartridges “Know what pellet guns use” perhaps… You could make a (Gas fed) helical drum, that… Well it takes a catridge/s in the middle, and instead of a spring, it er… Rotates maybe giving a bit of counter rotating give also with rebound, sort of a gas strut as oppose a spring… And maybe it could cool the action; were Bisons full auto originally in relation to having a larger capacity.
Might be something in that, an “archimedes screw” of cooling, aside from feed… Might be. Might not be. But cooling is important; these c02 cartridges aren’t expensive – Depends, have to try it; see if it cools stuff.
Can’t make tea out of it mind, so it wouldn’t be a cooling system of interest to Britain.
Can get bigger than the wee c02 cartridges which are still readily available I.e. Not expensive now, shake rattle and roll. Meh, I’d try it if I was a Yank and had a shed.
Paintball gun ones, be a way… Premise, sound’ish… Point? Be a better mag if it worked.
https://youtu.be/DHKxoARmjLU?si=Ow7q2qOeqviPkyes