29 Comments

  1. Wow– that was so cool.
    I love Mauser pistols.
    Have one of the first one’s that came in from China over twenty years ago.
    Now that you made this video I’ve got to have one of the Schnellfeuer models + wooden stock.
    You know I have to ask– where and at what price can I get a nice one?
    (I also still the market for a Lewis too.)
    Regards
    Pat

    • Looking at the past sales at James Julia (they let you search previous auctions by item), I see examples from $9200 to $23650. The low end was a completely refinished one, and the high was a gorgeous original example. There were a couple in the middle in the $12k-$16k range.

    • Patrick-

      A Lewis along with many (20+) drums, various spare parts and, barrels is at Rock Island preparing for sale now. Be prepared for a large Class 3 auction i.e 40+ items plus spare parts. Ian- Please forgive hijacking this thread!

  2. I never shot one. I wonder how controllable it would be without a stock, but using the magwell/magazine for support?

  3. Had a chance to buy a C96 in the early ’70’s. Couldn’t swing it on my 2LT pay. Always regretted it. They’ve just got so much character they’re in a class by themselves.

  4. Noticed the take down lever jump in full auto… If it were not the cocking hammer, the gun would go “self stripped”.

  5. That is unique shot!
    All things considered, one should not be surprised the Chinese liked it; many targets, many bullets.

    • Careful, China had few munitions factories (if any). Where would you get more ammo? I don’t suppose the Chinese would have simply rechambered the M712 for 45 ACP.

  6. The Chinese (KMT) Army, used so many of them that they issued a small manual showing all the Details on stripping, cleaning, and combat use of the SF. One Illustration is of a soldier holding the SF SIDEWAYS, to utilize the Muzzle climb in FA to “traverse” the Front, just like sweeping a SMG or Auto rifle across one’s front. IN the Mauser SF case, it was done by the recoil and muzzle jump…

    Whole squads ( “assault troops”) can be seen with full SF rigs…Canvas Body Pouches for extra Magazines or Clips ( a lot of the Chinese-delivered Schnell-Feuers had removable, double stack 20 round Mags, rather than the solid, Early 1900s Mag design, machined into the Bottom Receiver.) They also could carry extra 10-round stripper-clips in these Pouches, so the “well armed Trooper” could have up to 300 rounds or more on him. The stock was carried in a webbing holder, also hanging from this Body Vest.

    BTW, China had several ammunition Factories ( annexed to Gun Arsenals) and during the “Anti-Japanese War” a lot of smaller, “Rural” Plants were set up, even if only to fill cases made at other bigger Arsenals. The Chinese managed to save all the Major arsenals, as the Japanese Invaded. There is a documentary on how the Hanyang Arsenal was shipped, by Boat, Rail, Trucks and Pack animals, west to Chungking, as the Japanese approached Wuhan, of which Hanyang is a part of a three city agglomeration. The Only Arsenal in China to completely fall to the Japanese was Mukden (Shenyang), which became “Ho-Ten” in Japanese Arsenal network. This in the 1931 Takeover of Manchuria by Japan. And Mukden was not “owned” by the Chinese Gov’t, but by the “Old Marshall, Tso Lin, Ruler of Manchuria.

    During the AJW Chinese Factories made 7,9mm ( M88 AND S AND sS CARTRIDGES,) .45 ACP ( They had Thompsons, Originals and Locally Made) 7,63 Mauser Pistol ( idem Mauser, Star, etc and SMGs in 7,63 ( German and Other Designs—The Tsing-Tao Ironworks made a Vollmer-supervised M1927 ( same as the M1928 German gun) in 7,63 calibre) and eventually they also made .30/06 ammo for Lend Lease US equipment. and for the 1940s built copy of the Colt Export Watercooled M37 BMG ( built by Gong Xian Arsenal ( double Diamond Logo). Some Factories also made 6,5 Japanese, as the tide of war swung against the Japanese, for the thousands of captured T38 rifles and MGs in KMT Hands.
    The story of who made what is contained in the Chinese “History of the Chinese Ordnance Industries” ( see Bin Shih ( Firearms) on GunBoards for a translated version.)

    As to the .45 version, this was made by Shanxi Arsenal, and designed from the Get-go in .45 Calibre ( Heavier, oversized frame and slide etc.). Numbers produced were small relative to the other, Chinese made 7,63 calibre C96 and 712s (Taku Naval Dockyards, (near Tientsin) made some C96s in 7,63 calibre in the 1920s, probably for Chinese Naval Use.

    Doc AV

    • Excellent information, Doc!

      In retrospect, this (anti-Japanese) war must have been affair of epic proportions; similar to Great Patriotic War in Russia. No one should discount Chinese resourcefulness.

      • Read [u]OSS Special Operations in China[/u]
        ISBN:978-0932572400

        and you’ll have a greater appreciation for just with what they were contending. U.S. involvement in the CBI theatre was kind of late in the war, & not much about it has ever been told; the author was a Jedburgh who got reassigned to CBI after D-Day. The Chinese Nationalists were rife with corruption, but probably could have managed to repel the Japanese if they weren’t fighting on two fronts: the Japanese invaders and the Communist collaborators led by Mao. Truly an enlightening bit of history, and a book I’m very pleased to have read.

  7. I have always liked this Mause-type pistol, fired many but never owned one. I would like to own a fully automatic version such as this but in .45 (of course). But as stated and shown, they would be a bear to control without the stock. Due to this, in actual use I would rather have a Jati machine pistol (Jatimatic) as was tested by Ian back in December of 2012 )http://www.forgottenweapons.com/submachine-guns/jatimatic/) because they were the most controllable machine pistol I have ever shot. The only reaction other than the mild recoil was the torque as it was fired. This is shown well in the video (in Finnish) at )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nli8IQrUFxw) in the closeup of the muzzle during full auto. The reason can be seen in the U. S. Patent No. 4,569,270 showing the inclined slide rail, etc. During testing I shot a full 40-round mag with a one-handed grip and extended arm. At 25 yards all went into a man-sized target in a center-hit cluster. This is why they were intended for security/body-guard use and covert operations. Mack in the late 1980s I tried to buy the rights to it for further development, including a re-design for a staggered round clip, but was unable to close the deal. Pity …

  8. It really must have been an excellent weapon for the type of warfare in China at that time. Able to fit the needs of both open warfare and cloak and dagger.

  9. at 1120rpm a 20-round lasts 1.07 seconds

    that means that when the chell from the first shot hits the ground another 6 or 7 rounds have left the gun

  10. Either someone told it to Ian, or he researched well before firing – note that he kept the firing hand thumb folded neatly to the side of the gun. There’s a reason for that, and quite painful at that, as I recall my first firing of the Schnellfeuer, quarter + of a century ago, when I made a mistake of putting my thumb over the stock. The nadir of the hammer swinging is actually LOWER then your knuckle, and it’s hard to stop firing before 4-5 rounds are downrange – it takes a while before you start feeling something is effing far from OK with your hand 🙂 The knuckle got so swollen from that hammer beating after the burst, that I was unable to clench a fist for more than a week. Not a good thing for a law student before the digital times – plenty to note, and I couldn’t handle a pen. So, yes, I now kinda tend to remember to take the thumb off from the Broomhandle’s stock…

      • Just a question: in the clip where you’re firing it w/o the stock, why didn’t you utilize the mag housing as a forward grip like you did when firing it as a carbine? I would think that would have provided much better control of the hellacious muzzle flip you described, a la’ the flip down grip on a Beretta 93R, vs. a 2-handed pistol grip of the Modern Technique? For those of us living vicariously thru your videos in Occupied Amerika, records of complete & extensive testing of all methodologies is of vital interest! 😉

  11. Marty wrote: A Lewis along with many (20+) drums, various spare parts and, barrels is at Rock Island preparing for sale now. Be prepared for a large Class 3 auction i.e 40+ items plus spare parts. Ian- Please forgive hijacking this thread!

    MARTY, I “won” that auction and I’m now waiting for the BofATF&E to forward there approval.
    Pat

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