When the German Army tested last-ditch Volkssturm rifles late in World War Two, one of the particularly obscure submissions was August Coenders’ Coenders-Rochling Volkssturmkarabiner. This was a bowl action rifle chambered for 8mm Mauser with a 5-round magazine. However, instead of using a traditional bolt action system it had a fixed breechblock and the handle was attached tot he barrel. Cycling the action meant unlocking the barrel and sliding it forward, while the breechblock held the fired case in place. When the barrel was fully forward, the next round in the magazine would kick out the empty case, and pull the barrel rearward seated the next cartridge, ready to fire. In testing, the rifle was, frankly, terrible.
Thanks to the Springfield Armory National Historic Site for giving me access to this unique specimen from their reference collection to film for you! Don’t miss the chance to visit the museum there if you have a day free in Springfield, Massachusetts:
https://www.nps.gov/spar/index.htm
I can see that cycling the barrel would not help accuracy. But it is interesting to see what can be done for a simple last-ditch effort.
While it might not be a very thick volume, having Headstamp Publishing documenting these sorts of desperate efforts would be of interest.
It looks like an updated version of the Prince patent of 1856;
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/01/29/princes-sliding-barrel-breechloading-rifle/
Or for that matter the Gevelot pinfire, although in its case there was just a sliding chamber;
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/gevelot-11mm-sliding-chamber-pinfire-rifle/
Exactly how this was supposed to be faster and cheaper to make for the Volkssturm I’m not really getting.
clear ether
eon
Or the even earlier (but slower) British “turn-off” pistols.
I’ve thought of using similar concepts for a Contender-style pistol, but it fell behind others in my project queue.
Fixed-bolt, moving-barrel solution was used just few years earlier in PzB M.SS.41 https://modernfirearms.net/en/anti-tank-rifles/germany-anti-tank-rifles/pzb-m-ss-41-eng/
I remember seeing a display of various “zip-gun” models, once upon a time.
There was one that basically took this idea and ran with it; two pieces of tubing, one sliding inside the other, and a locking mechanism that consisted of a couple of slots cut into the “barrel” tube that went over the breechblock bit. The example they had was in 12-gauge, but the display said that there had been a centerfire rifle version using a scavenged rifle barrel as an insert into the inner tube-barrel affair.
TBH, I could see something like this being a rock-bottom last-ditch weapon, akin to the Liberator or Deer Gun. You’d use it to kill one of the enemy, and take their (hopefully…) superior weapon.
I talked to the guy who’d done the evaluation on the design, and he said that it was surprisingly robust, in that the majority of the recoil force seemed to go back into the breechblock, and the “locking lugs” didn’t get all that much stress applied to them. It was a very bare-bones firearm, and he said that you could make the damn things with stuff you could buy down at the hardware store and a bit of time filing parts with hand-files…
I believe the design of the shotgun was sent to Philippine Guerillas, WWII. I think I saw it in an older book about WWII and the Philippines. Black powder shells, shoot a Japanese soldier, take his weapon.
Look for Iliff D. Richardson for further information, see for example https://www.guns.com/news/2017/05/14/richardsons-philippine-guerrilla-gun-a-gun-to-get-a-gun
Or the even earlier (but slower) British “turn-off” pistols.
I’ve thought of using similar concepts for a Contender-style pistol, but it fell behind others in my project queue.
“(…)August Coenders(…)”
If you forgo quality of build this weapons seems externally similar to Swiss Pistolengewehr from around 1921 year https://www.cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/765-x-35-furrer/ which might suggest period of work in Switzerland by Coenders might have lasting effect.
“(…)Cycling the action meant unlocking the barrel and sliding it forward(…)”
Note that this itself seems undesirable for desired purpose. Numerous militia members have prior experience from Great War with Gewehr 98 as default weapon. With more normal bolt-action rifle they might use prior training.
I have a feeling in manipulating this rifle, even carrying around, it could be easy through inertia or by slightly bumping the barrel handle, to partially unlock the action, thus making it very dangerous if it could be fired still, with this double action trigger.
“This was a bowl action rifle…” That explains a lot.
It would be interesting to see if the gun had left hand rifling, would firing it unlock the barrel.
As for the design, feeding from magaz. was finicky but maybe doing it as a single shot (like martini henry) would have some merit, though in ww2 tactics usefulness would be probably negligible, especially if it is not very accurate.
You should speak to your local authority, good out of the box thinking that.
Wouldn’t the lug on the side of the barrel only have to hold the barrel from going forward? Without doing some calculations it seems like that would be less than the force pushing back on the bolt. Hmmm.
Bart, look for the book “Desperate Measures” by W. Darrin Weaver. It covers a lot of the Volksturm weapons including the rifle above. In the description it mentions that the firing mechanism is “a double-action affair such as used on certain revolvers, with a trigger pull long and stiff enough to eliminate the need for a safety.” Well that also explains the poor accuracy. The book also covers the semi-auto version.
A sight with 5 apertures. Righttt. For taking precise shots from 100 to 500 meters? And why the shroud with all those time consuming holes! What extravagance!
Well you can see what he was thinking, and why the local authority went with it. You can also see why the ex boss wanted rid of Adolf, as getting into a position were you… Have to do “This” is sub optimal, shall we say. I would have thought with that locking bolt handle they might have gone kurz although, maybe the mag was harder to do or the trials stated full power, or… Well er… Short service life; I mean if it blew up, or a Russian blew whoever was holding it up, the gun might not… Might not blow up, but the other issue seems like it might be likely. So pro’s cons – I can see why he went with that; not a bad idea overall. Bump fire versioned it in 5 mins “As is” leave the no trigger as is, and spring load the pistol grip against the mag, attach a \ shaped section to the pistol grip that would act on the bolt handle, when the gun moves back via you holding the pistol grip. Trigger – pistol grip is hinged back slightly strong spring, disengages a sear. Forces the pistol grip back to \ from | so the return bolt hits a / on the underside of the / and “Locks” mind you, whats this idea to get rid of Adolf? Might consider that as being a better idea, I mean this entire thing is going very wrong; I know losing ww1 was a bummer but what are going for complete extermination of Germany… Whats the logic. Sooo.. You can see why they came up with this, at the time. Rough time for them, ze Germans that. Caused them to knock out some interesting designs, for us to look at, but obviously it would have been better for them if they surrendered at that point.
I don’t like the sound of the bump fire idea either, it sounds bad and possibly missing something helpful; can only say after 10 mins, the extreme violence may actually sort of make it work – For a bit. Anyway Adolf, ok he sorted out some issues after ww1 which was welcome but…
Having said that, I would like to see his blow forward version; to see if it was similar to mine. Kurz lark, the local authority will buy it. What else can they do.
“Lift the peep sight drum thing on a \ definately want to be pointing sort of at the Russians midriff; with bump fire idea.” I’d say to the local authority. I probably wouldn’t say get rid of Adolf mind, but I would assume they got the jist.
Left hand rifling, we should definately ring hi-point. 7.62x39mm $199 big feck off Ak mag.
Cold places… Mitten wearers target market- No trigger.
“What are we having for tea mom?” Musk ox. Nice. Must be some Eskimos with 199.99.
12 month warrently; 3 month if your a fat eskimo and “Machine gunning local wildlife” small print, in English.
“12 month warrently;”
warren is Piece of ground in which rabbits are preserved or abound. Are you proposing to using said fire-arm for hunting Leporidae?
Feck Kurz Eskimos need full power, it’ll work stop moaning; musk ox, mmm!
Big bastarding one lug, modern tech, good materials… Mitten wearing Musk Ox eating mofo.
Be loads of Eskimos with 200 quid if Donald takes Greenland. Guillemot’s, tasty…
It’s semi auto’ish; mmm! Tasty wildlife. 199.99…
6 month warrenty, hey 200 bux.
Bump firing 7.62x39mm at a Musk ox, bear or such. Capable, it’s going down 30rds they do it in Africa with Elephants from the hip.
Anyway I go on, shit myself then thinking “It’s totally wrong.” well, it isn’t. Goodnight. It isn’t. Not totally. No.
Hey PDB,
Maybe if they incorporated your patented nitinol spring, two springs with different memory temperatures and tensions to facilitate the function of the militia’s musk ox modulator.
Hey PDB,
Maybe if they incorporated your patented nitinol spring, two springs with different memory temperatures and tensions to facilitate the function of the militia’s musk ox modulator.
That would outrage us purists. When it comes to dangerous game like cape buffalo, rhinos, and hemuphalunts it’s ‘Bump fire or die!’ Mebbe both
He he! 🙂 🙂 Ace Eight!
Mrs, trackys? “Shitted” Hee…
Might be a role for niti guns… Think of one; you might do better than me.
“Coenders” in German is pronounced like “Kernders” in English.
True say.
Anyway, hey… I am glad you all have your guns in the U.S “More or less safely, given the amount.” President Trump said, de-escalate in minnie mouse land Ace 8 I am going with that.
“Hey but Ace? My ideas, they aren’t always… That bad, are they? I mean everyone for over a decade?? Shitted trackys aside. Give me a break?” Hee…
(And I do mean that without laughing. I spent 36hrs in a row trying to learn about 1 gun. And commenting, albeit pissed.) But overall since 2014 or so, maybe before, I have learned lots, lots, which I sincerely thank all the other posters for; I was a total novice. I am not now.
So ace I read my comments above, I am not saying sorry for posting them; I appologise for not condensing them. And I do. I have before. I have a laptop, I should use paint again – To get some real idea, before “Waffling” Anyhoo… Nice to meet you, vis a vis.
Imagine the horror if it turned out one day that Pdb is actually Ian’s schizophrenic alter ego !
I am not schizophrenic, or… It’s mild. And will stay such, if I accept it and then say; well it’s mild – Could be worse. So, hey better than having type 2 diabetes. Eat rabbit food, don’t drink/smoke and you’ll be cured. Rather walk 17 mile burn the beer off and be slightly nuts.
Anyway, I am not nuts; look at the world. Not my fault, chocolate milk taps and free .22 rimfire ammo for all if I was in charge. And I wouldn’t try and but nukes on the moon, or blow it up because someone else wanted to. Because I would think about what earth would be without the moon – Fecked.
All the tweety birds, fish, plants, us knowing that, that white thing in the sky means we are round and there is a notion of time… Fecked. So no, I am perfectly sane.
And free .22 rimfire does make sense in the U.K instead of one day/week a year were everyone gets access to “Explosives” fireworks to simulate blowing up Parliament, folk could spend all year popping wee metal targets painted as Boris Johnson etc when they come on telly and thus would think s’meh I have shot him 8 million times this year anyway I’ll just go to work god bless the Queen. King. Etcml.
And then if theres any Prussians… Well, at least the populace would be quick to grasp the general idea and be better at it. Aye, you point it at them, aim, and pull the trigger. Quicker for conscripts – You mean like shooting Boris? Yes that, but with bigger guns. Not revolutionary, Britain used to do that more or less – Helps in not losing wars probably. Helps. Any help welcome. Incase.
“(…)Etcml.(…)”
Explain clearly how etcML i.e. Easy Text Classification with Machine Learning https://insideainews.com/2014/02/05/stanford-scientists-put-free-text-analysis-tool-web/ is involved in your plan.
It’s not. Be some good things through machine learning. R2d2. But also some bad things probably Cyberdine systems 101 for example; some issues… Hee.
“You hit a sore point there as my wonderfull Dad died when I was 26 and he was 52 and he was technically schizophrenic, apparently.” But he was a lovely fella, tell you that. Worlds best bloke.
Im 46 it wasn’t that killed him mind, it was type 2 diabetes. But as I say, really nice bloke.
Blag like to get compo from the Prison service? He said, he said. Hee! Life!
S’meh, life… He he!
Keir Starmer targets, etc, pop, pop. 12 months. Prussian popping – Folk would be better at it. Need to be an all, with the past experiences, but no, not now nobody thinks it might come in handy. Drones, go on about drones. Russians would stick their bayonets right up these Playstation pricks, and they would do feck all after an initial zapping of them with drones. Not a computer game, war.
Anyway, might work bump fire’ish blow forward; like to see the original.
It might have worked better in 8mm kurz. The drum sight is way OTT for such a last ditch weapon.
It strikes me the bolt handle does not need to be too strong, as it does not take the recoil, that would be the job of the hardened breech face.
So all in all an interesting design, but typical of the Germans. They already had a copy of the Sten, and should have been making that and the Panzerfaust for the Volssturm.
Be interesting to see the blow forward version Ian mentioned, Germans… Hee, tell us about it.
Handle is not insignificant, you have a force acting on barrel because of the rifling, so it wants to go forward, even if the breech face is stationary, and if it goes forward while firing, case could rupture.
We could sort that, it’s all good 199.99 ring highpoint; Donals new Eskimos, fuck Denmark not theres anyway, really; I know all about it – I used to crank call it in the early 90’s.
I’m just going to watch the video again confused myself.
Bollocks my wee green man, a leprechaun at -10 or whatever near Fort William. It was a fairy, folk, folk event. Hee! 🙂
You’ve got skitters whatever its called. Cnut. Not beliveing that. Fairy lights, there was two of us pinned down by fairy lights – He was moaning the wee green man that my tent was on his house. Fact.
Minus 10 aye, but two folk, nothing to with my potential “Being slightly left of centre”
Fact there was an action sized mofo “Illuminous green man with two black eyes and a mouth. And a big red Pope hat on, having a right go a me for blocking the entrance to his house, my mate saw it an all. Albeit it was nippy… But still calling me nuts, he he! 🙂
Well no, he didn’t see the wee man… But he was pinned by fairy lights like me thats a fact.
“I know you can trip a bit, half sleep; at freezing temps.” But I said to him, theres some sort of fecking leprechaun stood on my chest (In a sleeping bag) moaning like feck about something in garlic whatever. I said can you move? No theres loads of wee lights. I said same here.
Accusing me of having skitterism etc, he he.
Gaelic – Could have been French, point being couldn’t understand.
Furious he was, furious. He was like get up you fat pig “And I am slender” I was like right we’ll move mate… Could have been the freezing thing – Had been up Ben Nevis and that was snow covered. Still odd… I will have spoke of this prior, he he.
We didn’t move incidentally, woke up as per in daylight, then moved. Life.
20 yrs ago, thinking about it; it was either I was lying on it’s front door or it thought what the feck are these doing here trying to get me? So it gave me a warning in no uncertain terms if I was trying to “hunt” it, it was very capable of causing us significant issues. So desist.
As I say it was nippy… Who knows.
Know what I mean, thinking about it; you’d have thought even if it did live a hole it might have been able to squeeze past anyway given it was made out of a bright green gas as unusual creature; so what was it moaning about? And it was, moaning.
Anyway it worked, I am not camping there again. I picked it due to the stream.
Mini waterfall 2ft high, a wee flat plateau in an otherwise steep sided forest; was good map reading. Frozen and tired – perfect spot. But… He he.
Anyway whatever, fair play to it leprechaun’s or such. Meh. Wasn’t “Schizophrenia” anyway, thats a fucking fact.
Be nothing more welcome by Eskimos than a gun which doesn’t involve removing your mittens, of that I am 100% certain; Demarks fault for not doing it earlier. We/you can gift them 171,000 units which is 3 each; they’ll like that an all. Boxes with Trump in gold on them.
Confused myself there… With various things. Anyway! Right, so… What are we saying? A stock Ar style, attached to an ar lower as per but the pistol grip goes \ | / and that does it. Something. Because… The barrel section although blow forward in this instance, moves back “Recoil” into ar spring, but the pistol grip thing, allowing the bolt opening, and closing \ / thing… so you hold the pistol grip.
I am drunk now, left hand rifling… Must have been along those lines; because? Because… Point! Pistol grip operated, semi auto blow forward… Aye. Probably have to look at that again sober… But I think, it is’ish right. Reason – Eskimos. Cheap.
Aye so looks Ar but with a 7.62x39mm banana and no trigger… Because… Pistol grip… Sits \ prior to firing, burp… No. Will need to come back to that. Along those lines.
Yes,no… Yes… Yes. Be reet, along those lines.
Pistol grip \ angle… 1st now… Leave it, sober.
458. soccom is Soviet ammo cheap still… .556 no good whales etc. Burp… Nora.
Design point – An AR Coenders by high point. Feckin right we can do it in .458… Soccom not .458 hee.
They’d like that better “Polar bears” .458 soccom 171,000 units 3 each… Be along these lines. Aye it will bump fire, its not .458 .458… Broken nose etc.
Still cheap… Ish, it exists.
Mags exist… Aye, that.
Aye so… “Not leaving it” We keep the forward part of the Coenders as the sudo Ar front end “Established that.” so the point is the barrel, and breech plug are one as per. Now in the bump fire version; the arse end of said plug hits the AR spring… Aye…
Aye… So we now get to the pistol grip \|/ thing… Burp. “Hey it’s not bollocks” bare with…
Might be shit but not bollocks, thinking…
Ok Mk1… So the pistol grip pivots on a hinge at the top, aye it goes /|\ now we add a spring…
Thinking… It is what I waffled originally… Be like 5 mins.
Pissed now, might be ten mins; not far off, the above I think makes sort of sense.
I bsaid iybovev quiyemmmm… Get therem
Twat. Amyway last bit – imlpkg bit
. no.
Left hand rifling! Causes bolt to want to open…
Aye… So basic… The fecking pistol grip is hinged at the top. It has attached to it a bastarding trangle thing. And a strong… Can’t see my clockxc notvl cock. Night. Ib will nail this doon.
So essentially there is “said triangle thing, attached, aye to the pistol grip.” looking into space here… And when you move the pistol grip it goes \ said triangle thing bolt opens, and then / dooosh… Lock bolts. Night nowz, wolill come back. Some points prob.
blow forward I i am confused an all
.
And its not confusing back open, so handle \ bolt shut thus handle / aye.. or otherway round, quite simple.
Be a few more points, night.
Fresh ice cold beer 01:31Hrs it’s ok I am off till Saturday. Mmmm. So yes simple, only thing is the pistol grip has a strong spring forcing it \ Why… I honestly don’t know. Assuming it will come back to me.
Oh right “Sorry for going on, again” but so said (Triangle) think… Both sides of the pistol grip there is attached er… Pieces think Ak safety/selector lever… Aye, attached to the pistol grip “Yes so if you pivot the pistol grip; your right.” Now. Recoil forces barrel/breech plug combined against Ar spring, pistol grip “Ar style” is at this angle \ aye. Now. Bolt “Blow forward so attached to barrel” hits \ surface on the (Triangle thing, aye attached to the pistol grip.) This unlocks the barrel to blow forward, it returns via top spring… And hits the / surface “The underside” of said triangle attached to the pistol grip. Because the pistol grip is / hence the / of the triangle not the \ I.e. As in when then pistol grip is \. I know quite, anyway have a good evening, glad I got that out me. Fecking Leprechauns… All over, tapping, voices… He he… 🙂
More or less that… Think I will watch some footie highlights, nora.
Oh, the: | position of the pistol grip = trigger I.e Sear release. S’meh, might work.
That “Thing” was that mad at me… Had I acidentally stood on a “relative” you know getting to the spot – Wasn’t looking out for fairys, just wanted water. Oh no, I’ve stood on a fairy in German para boots. Eeek… What can I do? But wish them well.
It seems there was a development of this rifle in 8mm kurz, which was semi-automatic, operating as a blow forward piece. That would be an interesting gun to look into.
Definitely!
But even photos of it are scarce to nonexistent.
Yes, I have seen one photo of it. It seems to have a fixed magazine fed by a clip of five 8mm kurz rounds. It has the same sights and double action trigger as the full size rifle. It might have made quite a handy carbine.
I’ve also seen a photo and often like graphic drawing of that photo. But no innards whatsoever.
I wonder where are example or examples of it at all, maybe in russia, like with Horn stg.
Yes, I don’t know exactly how the carbine works, except it is blow forward. I think it must be semi-auto as it has such a small magazine. I would not be surprised if Russian archives have one, but they will never tell us.
Maybe, just a speculation, that fired bullet pushes the barrel forward (which is unlocked, free of charging handle in slot), barrel is calculated precisely for weight that is required for such effect, while case is held back by some extractor, and something kicks it out, maybe another round from the magazine climbing up, follower being freed by that barrel that went forward. Then barrel returns via spring and picks a fresh cartridge from mag. top and chambers it.