The Apache Arms carbine was a Thompson SMG lookalike that was made in small numbers in the late 1960s. It was the successor to the Spitfire carbine made by the same people, after the Spitfire was deemed a machine gun by the IRS. The Apache used M3 Grease Gun magazines and was chambered for .45 ACP. It uses a square receiver tube and many of the same cast parts as the Spitfire. It is a very interesting look at how the design was adapted to be legally considered semiautomatic.
Spitfire Carbine video: https://youtu.be/GHJ7OHzlFGg
The only guy I’ve ever met who bragged about being a robed and hooded member of the Ku Klux Klan also bragged about being the proud owner of a Spitfire carbine. It fit really well.
Just adding one letter you get: Robbed and HOODed :-))
I could never quite wrap my head around the concept of weapons like these, “look-alikes” that really aren’t at all what the real deal was.
The civilian versions of the M14 and the AR-15 make a lot of sense; same weapon, just without the “happy switch”. This thing? You don’t have anything other than a vaguely similar profile, really, and the functionality isn’t even there.
Auto Ordnance made some decent money selling actual semi-auto Thompsons for a good long time. People will pay for authenticity; obvious fakery? Not so much, apparently…
I mean, look at Wilkinson Arms: Totally unique, and most of their stuff sold fairly well, because it was honest about what it was, and so do things like the various Marlin PCC offerings.
Good God, there are even people out there who will buy HK MP5 facsimiles with 16″ barrels. Which is nuts, but there you go…
Probably the least-unreasonble ones are the 9mm, .40, .45 or etc. carbines like the Marlin Camp 9 or Ruger PC. Lightweight carbines looking and handling a lot like a typical .22 autoloader (Ruger 10/22), but ranging farther and hitting with more authority.
Their exact “niche” isn’t really debatable. They are neither hunting weapons or “plinkers”. They are defensive longarms for use against assailants at relatively close range. Whether those assailants have four legs or only two is largely of only academic interest.
As Edwin Tunis said of the M1 Carbine (which used to be made by Iver Johnson in 9 x 19mm, come to think of it) these are really pistols which look like rifles. Easier for the non-pistoleer to shoot rapidly with reasonable accuracy out to 50 meters or so, and with their longer barrels maybe having a bit more velocity and thus FPE than the same round from a four or five-inch pistol barrel.
I know of at least one case (described in Kat Ainsworth’s book on handgun hunting) of an attacking bear brought down by 9 x 19mm at close range. So even what most handgun hunters would define as a “pipsqueak” cartridge can get the job done with multiple hits to the vitals.
The new Henry Homesteader 9 x 19mm carbine would seem to be the logical conclusion, handling much like the old Winchester M1907, but able to use magazines from almost any of the popular brands of 9mm service pistols, Glock, S&W, Beretta, etc.
It or any of the others could be a handy thing to have in case of something going “bump” in the night that shouldn’t be doing so.
clear ether
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The Ruger PC-9. Basically a 10/22 in 9×19. I won one and after taking 10 second to switch to the Glock mag well, it’s been accurate and 100% reliable. No complaints.
The happy switch is out of the reach for many people.
There are guns that just are fun to shoot.
“(…) don’t have anything other than a vaguely similar profile, really, and the functionality isn’t even there.(…)”
According to https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Spitfire_Carbine (progenitor of said weapon) https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Spitfire_Carbine
Later part should be: Due to the low cost in comparison to a genuine Thompson, a large number of theses weapons were exported to Central America, where they were even used by the Mexican police for a time.
M3 mags might be cheap and reliable but are the hardest to fully load without a loading tool. Or as my US Army friend told me. You get gorilla thumbs loading those mags.
Maybe for civilian plinking use, loading only to 20 or so was sufficient
I remember a TV movie where a gang of bank robbers had submachine guns with the Spitfire issue. The police lab would not believe the detectives that were the target of the gang because the lab could not see anything in the mechanics of the gun that would allow full auto. That is until an FBI agent showed up who had been chasing these guns across the country.
The rear grip is perfect for who has four fingers.
There’s probably some second rate hood out there calling hisself “Fats Four Fingers.” He had this accident, see, trying to fan his Fitz Special and fire DA at the same time. Now he just goes in for a badass Tommygun vibe
Simpsons much ?
The funny thing is that:
-had they shaped the rear grip for a human hand;
-secured the rear sight with three screws on slots, separated from securing the rear plug, for a crude but effective windage regulation;
-secured the rear plug with a quick release pin;
-made the firing pin removable (even only using screws instead of welding);
That would have been a decent weapon.
A testament to the simplicity of SMGs.
From my patent research days, iirc there are some of it on this, or spitfire, maybe only the overall appearance, but I’d need to search them again.
Production wise with all these screws and set screws, spring pins and unwieldy assembly, this has more in common with a gun toy (where mostly looks is important) then a functional made firearm. Coupled with insane price all feels like built to scam buyers who wanted something resembling M1A1, no wonder it folded to bankruptcy quickly.
Is the manual available scanned ?
For “spitfire”, patent is: US3246566A
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/554/24/383193/
Seems like the Spitfire designer had more troubles then designing and building fully automatic weapons.
Appellant William M. Ordner, Jr., is a licensed commercial blaster and firearms manufacturer. On March 2, 1976, he was charged in a six-count indictment with various violations of the Gun Control Act of 1968.1 At his trial before Honorable Robert J. Ward, United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York and a jury, Ordner presented a defense based on entrapment and duress. The jury convicted him on Counts One through Three and acquitted him on Counts Five and Six.2 The counts of the indictment on which Ordner was convicted are, in substance “ONE”, unlawful possession “wilfully and knowingly” of a firearm, namely, a .25 caliber “Pen Gun” not bearing a required serial number; “TWO” unlawful transfer of said “Pen Gun”; and “THREE” unlawful possession of 502 .25 caliber “Pen Guns” (26 U.S.C. §§ 5842, 5845(a), (e) and (j), 5861(e) and (i) and 5871). Judge Ward sentenced Ordner to ten-year terms on each of the three counts, the sentences to run concurrently, subject to modification after a 90-day study to be conducted pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 4205(c) and (d).
Very interesting data!
Subsequent Spitfire evolution to “Commando” carbine, there is a patent from some guy Flix, it is a striker fired weapon.
Havent found a patent on Apache and it fcg.
Auto Ordnance had not yet begun to offer “genuine” semi auto carbines. Things like this got the attention of whoever owned the name, and they started production in the mid 1970s.
So it was this (and similar) or nothing if you wanted a semi auto .45 carbine in 1968.