I’ve always been interested in Israeli firearms, because that nation has had more need to actually use their arms in combat in the past 50 or 60 years than almost any other nation. Couple that with a relatively small military bureaucracy, and you get a very interesting insight into what works and what doesn’t.
The Israeli Dror (“Liberty”) light machine gun was a variation of the M1944 Johnson light machine gun. Israeli was in desperate need of weapons in the late 1940s, and several of Melvin Johnson’s engineers sympathized with the Jewish cause. They helped smuggle the complete technical package on the Johnson LMG to the Israeli Hagannah despite the formal arms embargo instituted against Israel.
The Johnson (and thus also the Dror) is a recoil-operated machine gun, firing from an open bolt in full auto and from a closed bolt in semiauto. It uses an 8-lug rotating bolt which would go on to be used by Eugene Stoner in the AR15 years later. This is complex to manufacture, but offers a strong lockup. Upon firing, the bolt and barrel recoil together about 3/16″ backwards, until a cam on the top of the bolt engages a ramped surface inside the top of the receiver, which forces the bolt to rotate, unlock, and continue rearwards under inertia. Ejection of the empty case is done by a plunger ejector in the bolt face (another feature which found its way into the AR).
First Pattern Dror
The first batch of Drors made underground in Israel were chambered for .303 British, to make use of the available stocks of that cartridge. These first guns bear a very close resemblance to the Johnson, including the distinctive tall front sight and barrel release actuated by a cartridge or punch. They used a side-mounted sharply curved 20-round single-stack magazine like the Johnson .30-06 magazine. These models suffered from feeding problems probably due to the rimmed nature of the .303 cartridge, and only 800-1000 were made.
First pattern .303 Dror (photo by Max Popenker)
Second Pattern Dror
A second pattern of Dror was designed and built chambered for 8×57 Mauser, another caliber the Israeli has in large quantity. The use of a rimless round solved many of the issues from the first pattern guns. They also incorporated a number of other design changes, starting with a bottom-mounted box magazine (modified US BAR magazines were used). The barrel release was also improved – it was now a lever mounted on the front barrel bearing (which appears to be a gas block at first glance). Pushing in on the butting and lifting the lever up allows the barrel to be pulled forward out of the gun. The distinctive orange/brown fiber shround on the front section of the barrel was added as a heat shield, so that a hot barrel could be removed without needing a tool or insulating glove.
Other improvements included protective ears for the rear sight (folding down towards the read of the gun), a carry handle on the barrel shroud, and a folding cover to close the magazine well when not in use. Typical of Israeli weaponry, these are all eminently practical modifications.
Second pattern 8mm Dror (photo by James D Julia Auctions)
Ultimately, the Dror saw no large-scale combat use. Feeding issues with the first pattern gun prevented it from seeing widespread use in the 1948 War of Independence. Even with the second pattern improvements, the Dror still retained the fundamental problem of the Johnson LMG – it was prone to malfunction if not kept clean. The many-lugged rotating bolt was made with fairly tight clearances, and there was very little excess space inside the receiver for dirt or sand. As a result, fouling quickly affected performance. Rather than continue development of the Dror, it was decided to find alternative weapons instead. As a result, use of the Dror was limited mostly to training.
Today we take a look at Bruce Canfield’s Collector’s Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. This is one of Canfield’s earlier books, and is now out of print. It is still available, though, and a less expensive alternative to his revised and expanded “Complete Guide”.
At the SHOT Show last weekend, we has the opportunity to interview Charles St. George, designed of the Leader T2 rifle we have previously discussed. We ended up having to run this interview twice, as background noise made the first take unfortunately inaudible – but our second take came out quite well.
We very much enjoyed speak with Mr. St. George both on and off camera, and quite impressed with his new bullpup Leader 50 rifle. It may not be a Forgotten Weapon, but we’re definitely looking forward to a chance to try one out at the range once they go into production this summer.
A few resources mentioned during our interview:
The Leader T2, with its triangular bolt, was patented in 1982. You can download the full patent here: US Patent 4,358,986 (Charles Giorgio, “Rifle Bolt Assemblies”, November 16, 1982)
You can find more information on the T2 on our Leader T2 page in the vault, including our previous video showing disassembly and function.
In 1897, John M. Browning was awarded four consecutive patents, which covered a big swath of possible automatic pistol designs. The one we’re looking at today (pointed out to me by Rufus at SHOT – thanks!) is number 580,925, which pertains to a rotating-barrel lockup system. Yep, Browning patented that 15 years before the rotating-barrel Steyr went into production. It never went into production, but is definitely worth a look anyway.
Browning’s rotary design, unlike some of his other early pistols, has nice lines to it:
Unlike the Steyr 1912, this pistol did not use a modern-style slide. Instead, the shroud around the barrel was an integral part of the frame. It used a separate tubular slide assembly inside the shroud to affect rotation, with the barrel, equivalent in function to the slide on the Steyr. This inner tube (bolt carrier, really) held the locking lugs It used a pair of cams at the muzzle (A7 & B3) to control barrel rotation. The barrel and bolt carrier would stay locked together for the first bit of rearward motion (the precise distance required would have been determined through experimentation), and then the cammed grooves in the carrier would start to turn, unlocking it from the barrel.
The other features of the design were typical Browning – striker type firing pin, trigger wrapping around the magazine, grip safety, and even locking lugs that would blend right to other Browning designs. As a side note, it’s interesting to note that the design has no manual safety, just the grip safety. So why didn’t this go into production? I’m not sure – I don’t see any glaring problems, but I’m not an expert gunsmith by any stretch. My guess would be that Browning’s work with FN on the Model 1900 took up enough time that he just couldn’t pursue everything he had thought up.
It would make a neat project for someone with some spare time and CNC tools though, wouldn’t it?
Well, we arrived back home from Las Vegas and the SHOT Show last night. SHOT ended on Friday, but we took advantage of the weekend in Vegas with several more stops.
Friday, of course, was a full day at the SHOT Show. We only had enough time Thursday to cover most of the first floor of the show, so Friday was dedicated mostly to the second floor. It’s a huge event, and even after two full days there were booths that we never got to. We got to meet a bunch of great folks on Friday, like Oleg Volk (with whom I’m excited to do some collaboration in the future). We also had the opportunity to visit the great gun collection at Long Mountain Outfitters. Dan Shea, who runs the place, has a bunch of very interesting machine guns – like the original Heligun that we posted a photo of a while back.
And, as I mentioned, I took pictures of a representative sample of the zombie-related advertising that was a major theme at the show this year:
For most folks, Saturday was a chance to rest or head home, but we took the opportunity to visit the Antique Arms show being held in Vegas. It’s about the most expensive assortment of guns for sale that I’ve ever seen – complete with booths from firms like Parker shotguns, Rock Island Auctions, and all manner of high end collectors’ associations. I saw more original Colt revolvers, NFA-exempt short lever action Winchesters, early flintlocks, and royalty-grade engraved double rifles than I knew still existed. It was a great show to look through, even if most of the price tags would buy small houses – we saw a bunch of very cool Forgotten Weapons to photograph and add to the site over the next few weeks.
For my own part, I found what was likely the least expensive firearm there, and brought it home with me. It’s a Trapdoor Springfield, a design I’ve been inexplicably interested in for a while now. It’s in a pretty sad state of neglect right now (having been found hanging over the hearth in an abandoned log cabin in the Utah wilderness), and I’m looking forward to cleaning it up. I expect you’ll be seeing more of that particular rifle in the coming months.
After having spent half a day at that show, we headed to yet another show, making a record (for me) three different gun shows in two days. This last one was a normal one held at the Sports Center, and was unfortunately disappointing in size and quality. But hey, you never know when you’ll find that one great item at a little dinky show (for the record, we did not in fact find that item this time).
Not to be discouraged, we finished up the day with a trip over to Rick Reich’s shop, an online affair run by a gentleman we met at a gun show many years ago. Rick deals in surplus gun parts and accessories like pouches, belts, holsters, slings and the like. He will be joining the site as a sponsor in a couple months, and we were excited to see his stock and hear the news in the surplus industry.
By the time we dragged ourselves away (who can resist stacks of odd parts guns and that great milsurp aroma of old leather and cosmoline?) we were pretty well wiped out for the day. I’m embarrased to reveal just how early we hit the sack – I think the serious Vegas people hadn’t even started evening festivities.
Yesterday morning, we had one more important appointment, meeting up with Dolf Goldsmith. I’m happy to say that he is doing very well, and we are very excited to see his next book, which will be on early machine guns and manual machine guns (like the Gardner, Nordenfelt, Gatling, and so on). We chatted for a couple hours before having to excuse ourselves for the drive back home.
All in all, we had an excellent trip and made some great contacts with great people. I’m definitely looking forward to next year’s SHOT show as well.
I’m having some trouble figuring out the expression on this soldier’s face…is he disdainful of the photographer? Or just tired of dragging the gun around?
In any case, my experience taking machine guns to the range makes me think that it’s a real shame this kind of mount is obsolete. It’s got a seat for you, a shoulder rest to help control the gun, and nice big wheels for moving everything over lumpy ground. Would make a nice wood shop project for Grandpa’s potato digger, don’t you think?
The SHOT Show has been running for a couple days already, but we only arrived late Thursday morning. We spent Thursday mostly in the lower level, so we only saw about half the show (we’ll be checking out the other half today). SHOT is not really geared towards our sort of gun stuff (older experimental and prototype weapons), but we had a good time and found some cool things nonetheless.
First, we had the chance to film an interview with Charles St. George, inventor/designer of the Leader T2 rifle. We had a great time speaking with him both on and off camera – he’s another example of the great folks in the gun world – very knowledgeable about firearm design and manufacturing, and also a very genuine and friendly gentleman to speak with. He is here at SHOT with Micor Industries, showing his new Leader 50 semiauto bullpup rifle (which looks really slick). I’m hoping to have the interview compiled and posted by the end of next week.
It seems like every third booth at SHOT is showing a different manufacturer of AR rifle – one has to wonder how many more of these the market can really support. But amongst the passe black rifles, we found a pretty cool new product announcement – new production Radom pistols. The factory in Poland is still looking for an importer, but it sounds like they will be very reasonably priced. I would definitely get one!
New production Radom pistol #000001
We also had the chance to chat with Nathaniel, Rufus, and Alex – students of gun design who are visiting the show from Colorado and Germany. Thanks for stopping by, guys – it was fun talking!
If ARs were the main theme of the show today, zombies were a definite second place. Zombies are the big marketing thing right no – we saw all manner of zombie gear, including zombie ammo, zombie targets, and even a dedicated zombie shotgun. I’m going to take photos of every such ad I can find today for a fun little gallery of marketing goofiness.
There are some plans for more good stuff tomorrow, so stay tuned!
Okay, guys – I know we have a pretty well-informed bunch of readers, but let’s see how good you really are. We found this at a show – can you identify it?
We’ll be back next week with more cool stuff – I’m hanging out at SHOT in Vegas today. Hopefully, I’m getting a bunch of cool stuff to show you while you’re reading this. If you want to keep up with what I’m doing in (close to) real time, check out the Forgotten Weapons Facebook page – I’ll be posting regular updates through the day.
Back at the SAR West gun show in Phoenix, we came across a Scotti Model X rifle – and the owner was kind enough to let us take some photos. The Scotti was an experimental Italian semiauto design from the 30s. It was introduced in 1934 with a total of 250 made for trials, but the name suggests that it was designed in 1932 or early 1933. As you might notice on Carcano rifles, the Italian military often dated items based on a Fascist calendar beginning in October 1922 (when the Fascist government took power in Italy). So, a rifle marked XIV would have been made in 1936 (1922 + 14). In the case of the Scotti, the “X” have nothing to do with experimental, it’s just a date. In fact, this particular Scotti is also stamped “1933″.
Scotti Model X
The Scotti is basically a straight-pull bolt action with a gas piston added below the barrel. Unfortunately, we weren’t able to disassemble it – but we have a nice collection of exterior photos (we’ll get photos of the mechanism sooner or later! ). You can see them all on the Scotti Model X page in the Vault.
Scotti Model X markings
This fellow who let us photograph this rifle (Terry) is selling it. If you are interested, you can contact him at milsurp1@hotmail.com.
Want someone to buy your rifle? Butter them up with a demo model to play with. It still works that way today, and eighty years ago it was the same way. We have an interesting letter written to a Captain Porter by John Pedersen, describing the Pedersen rifle and ammo being shipped to him in time for deer season (click to enlarge).
Who wouldn’t like to get a note like that in the mail? The only bummer is that he wants to have the rifle returned when Captain Porter is done with it.
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